Christof Koch:
If you have been a long-time follower of Dr. Helen Fisher's work, you may have already learned the sad news that she passed away in August of 2024.
Heather Berlin:
Helen was a dear colleague, friend, and mentor. She was a pioneer in anthropology. We'll miss her very much.
Christof Koch:
We're grateful to have recorded this interview with her a few months before her passing.
Heather Berlin:
We hope that this conversation honors her legacy, a foundational research on the human circuitry of love and attraction.
Helen Fisher:
They pine for love, they live for love, they kill for love, and they die for love.
Elizabeth Koch:
Hi. I'm Elizabeth Koch. We all live inside our own personal private perception box built by our genes and the physical, social, and cultural environment in which we were born and raised. In this podcast, we explore how, although the walls of this mental box are always present, they can expand in states like awe, wonder, and curiosity, or contract in response to anxiety, fear, and anger.
I'd like to introduce our esteemed hosts, two incredible and distinguished minds, Dr. Heather Berlin, professor of psychiatry and neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City, and Dr. Christof Koch, chief scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current meritorious investigator and former president of the Allen Institute for Brain Science. Welcome to the Science of Perception Box.
Heather Berlin:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Science of Perception Box. I'm your co-host, Dr. Heather Berlin.
Christof Koch:
And I'm your co-host, Dr. Christof Koch.
Heather Berlin:
Every week we feature an aspect of the science of perception box, highlighting the latest research together with our expert guests. This week on Science of Perception Box, we explore the powerful forces of love and heartbreak in the brain.
I cannot imagine a more groundbreaking and qualified researcher to explore this topic with on the show than Dr. Helen Fisher. Dr. Helen Fisher is a biological anthropologist. She's conducted extensive research on the evolution, biology, and psychology of human sexuality, monogamy, adultery, and divorce. She can also speak to the neural chemistry of romantic love and attachment, why we fall in love with one person rather than another, plus all the current trends of human relationships, hooking up, friends with benefits, and online dating, to name a few.
Dr. Fisher is a senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute at Indiana University and the chief science advisor to the internet dating site Match.com. She's also written six books, including Anatomy of Love, Why We Love, and Why Him? Why Her? If you've ever had a heartbreak or had a hard time falling in love, or even if you're happily head over heels, you're going to want to hear this.
First we want to open it up with our connection to love. Christof, has the experience of love or the experience of heartbreak changed your perception box?
Christof Koch:
It changes everything, because love fundamentally changes what I perceive, which is my reality, which is the only thing I know about the world. It changes it in untold ways, both the beginning of love, as well if love ends. Suddenly reality changes. The very same reality appears very, very different.
Heather Berlin:
It changes for you in what way?
Christof Koch:
Early on, the world is in fluorescent color. Everything's intoxicated. You need much less sleep. You're hyper excited. You constantly think about the person you love. You're obsessed with him or her.
Then, when you fall out of love or when there's a breakup, the very same things that were attractive ... They turn into opposite. They turn like, "I hate this thing about her. I hate this habit." But it's still the same person and the same reality, it just appears very different.
I think it's a beautiful instance of this construction we call the perception box, that our mind and our brain constructs what we perceive to be reality. Love shows how it can dramatically change more than anything else on the planet.
Heather Berlin:
It's almost like, when you're falling in love, it's your perception box is expanding, and when you're falling out of love or been heartbroken, it contracts.
Christof Koch:
It contracts. Yes.
Heather Berlin:
There's this great scene in this film, 500 Days of Summer, which takes you through the falling-in-love phase and then the breakup phase. In the beginning, he's like, "I love her little heart-shaped mole on her neck, and the way she eats," and this and that. Then, by the end, they're broken up. "I hate that horrible blotch on her neck and the sound she makes when she chomps her food."
Christof Koch:
That's exactly-
Heather Berlin:
It's the same stimuli, but you see it in two different ways.
Helen, do you have any insight into this? Why does our perception change when we're falling in love, when we're falling out of love, when we've been rejected?
Helen Fisher:
The brain changes and you see the world differently. The opposite of love is not hate. They run along a lot of the same channels. The opposite of love is indifference. That's when you're free.
Heather Berlin:
That's a really poignant point, because when you break up and you have all the anger and you hate-
Helen Fisher:
You're equally focused. You wake up thinking about it, you go to bed thinking about it. You run through all of the day, and what you used to love and why you can't stand it now. You go through all that.
When you hate somebody, you spend the same amount of energy as when you love them, perhaps even more. People ... They pine for love, they live for love, they kill for love, and they die for love. I think it's mankind's most powerful drive.
It's a drive. I found that in the brain. It comes from the lowest centers of the brain. In fact, the basic factory, the ventral tegmental area, which I'm sure you both know about, the VTA ...
Christof Koch:
The VTA.
Helen Fisher:
Makes the dopamine that gives you that focus, the motivation, the craving, the thing. It lies right next to the factory that orchestrates thirst and hunger. Thirst and hunger keep you alive today, romantic love drives you to form a partnership and send your DNA into tomorrow.
Of course, when you're rejected in love, you've lost that opportunity to send your DNA into tomorrow. People will say, "Why don't we get over this?" The bottom line is that, when you're dumped, you've certainly ... You may have lost your children, the cat, the dog, the neighbors, the rituals of Christmas, or Hanukkah, or something else, but what you really lost ... If you're not married to the person and you're planning to marry them, you've lost your ability to send your DNA into tomorrow.
Christof Koch:
The function of love is ...
Helen Fisher:
Ultimately, that ...
Christof Koch:
Progeny.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. That survival.
Christof Koch:
To have progeny to send your DNA down to the next generation.
Helen Fisher:
Ask anybody in the street, they wouldn't say that. They'd say ... They wouldn't ... The other thing is that, if you're actually married to somebody and you have children, you've lost mankind's greatest prize, a mating partner.
Heather Berlin:
Still, people fall in and out of love well past the point, for women, when they can even have children. Is this program just ... It's a remnant? It just keeps running?
Helen Fisher:
I remember sitting down on a Saturday morning, summer. The windows were all up. I thought, "Why would this brain circuitry remain?" the point is lost. But then I thought, but I do-
Christof Koch:
It's lost after I've had, already, children.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. Then, I don't think there's any science answer, but I reasoned ... I do know that a good relationship with somebody enables you to live five to 10 years longer. It would be very adaptive, I'm an anthropologist, as you know, in hunting and gathering societies, to somebody who's way past the possibility of reproducing, to have a partner who likes you, who you love, that will be supportive as you get older, help you if you get sick.
Sex is very good for the body. Romance is very good for the body. Feelings of deep attachment are all, for different reasons, extremely good for your health. My hypothesis is that we sustain this powerful brain system throughout life.
I was once with an audience and I asked, "Does anybody have a child who's in love?" A woman raised her hand and she told me, she said, "Yeah. My son is. Every single time a particular little girl comes over, he just sits next to her and strokes her hair, and he seems depressed for an hour and a half afterwards." I asked her, I said, "How old is your child?" The mother said, "Two and a half."
It's not the sex drive. It's a different brain system. I certainly know somebody today who's in his nineties. It's a powerful brain system that is good for your health as well as reproduction.
Christof Koch:
What about compassion? Is it also possible that once it's had its function to procreate and generate the next generation, you can then channel it into compassion? Not just for a single individual, but maybe for all of humanity, all of creation?
Helen Fisher:
Yeah, I think so. First of all, we're talking about three things, sex drive being one system, feelings of romantic love being the second, and feelings of deep attachment being the third. I think they all evolved, basically, for reproduction.
The sex drive ... You can have sex with a lot of people you're not in love with. You're just trying things out, learning things. Romantic love is focused on only one person, and can drive you to attachment. With the attachment, a third brain system with a ... They're all adaptive.
Christof Koch:
Why do you need romantic love? Why can't you just go directly to the attachment phase?
Heather Berlin:
From sex to attachment?
Helen Fisher:
I think a lot of people do. Kids in college, all the time. Or it's people at work, they are deeply attached to people, but they're both married to somebody else, and ... Then things change, and people break up.
Christof Koch:
You can have one without the other?
Helen Fisher:
You can have sex without the other too, and you can have romantic love without feelings of attachment. You can be madly in love with somebody and have no plan to marry them. "They're not the right kind of person. Could never introduce them to my friends. There's some basic things about them I couldn't live with forever," et cetera.
People make this mistake all the time. They assume first you have the sex, then you get the romantic love, and then you move into attachment. They're not phases, they're brain systems. You can start being madly in love with somebody in the office long before you have sex with them. You can have sex with somebody and never fall in love with them, and you can have a deep attachment for somebody and then times change. Their brain system-
Heather Berlin:
Would that be like a friendship, though? Would it just ...
Helen Fisher:
Yeah.
Heather Berlin:
Attachment without romantic love or sex is a friendship, right?
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. It's a friendship. I think you can be madly in love with your children.
Christof Koch:
That helps you overcome the teenager years.
Heather Berlin:
And the toddler years, and all the years.
Helen Fisher:
It does. For example, you've got small children, you're madly in love with them. You can't see that the kid has three heads, is a bully, is a whole lot of things. You're in love with ... But you don't want to have sex with them.
Heather Berlin:
The Greeks talked about all these different types of love.
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Heather Berlin:
There's love of child, there's love of your partner, and there's different types of love. But what you're saying is that there's similar brain systems that are involved.
Helen Fisher:
There's three brain systems that are involved in all six of them. It's very interesting because, as you know, I work with Match.com. I ask all the time, "What are you looking for?" That's one of the questions.
Every year, I and a couple colleagues cook up about 200 questions. Some are trend questions that I ask every time, and some are new questions. The newest ones I can't wait to tell you about is AI, and also polyamory, and even Roe v. Wade. We always ask the question, "What are you looking for?"
Heather Berlin:
Do people know? Is that part of the problem, that people don't know what they're looking for, or-
Helen Fisher:
They do know. I give them about 30 boxes to check, and every year we would look at the boxes. Except after the pandemic, every single year ... We started in 2010, so we got data on 75,000 Americans. We don't poll the Match population, it's a national representative sample based on the US census. It's age 18 to 71 plus, rural, suburban, urban, every part of the country, gay, straight, and everything in the middle.
Christof Koch:
What's the most consistent finding since 2010?
Helen Fisher:
The top one that singles have wanted all over America is respect. That's number one. Number two is, "Somebody who I can trust and confide in." Number three is, "Somebody who makes me laugh," which drives up the dopamine system, makes you feel good, also can get you over rough spots. Four is, "Somebody who makes enough time for me," and five is, "Somebody I find physically attractive." Those are the basic five.
Christof Koch:
That's only number five.
Helen Fisher:
Those are the ... Yes.
Christof Koch:
The physical attractive.
Helen Fisher:
Yes, and it's gone down.
Christof Koch:
Not number one or two.
Helen Fisher:
No. It's gone down from five to about seven or eight, and the next two are, "Somebody who's emotionally mature," and, "Somebody who is a good" ...
Heather Berlin:
Person?
Helen Fisher:
To the community.
Heather Berlin:
I was like, what about being emotionally available, being a good person, being kind? Those would be my top ones.
Helen Fisher:
They're in there.
Heather Berlin:
They're just not in the top?
Helen Fisher:
But they're not ... No. They want respect. They want somebody can trust and confide in. They want to ... If somebody makes them laugh. Somebody who makes a enough time from them, particularly in this modern world, is something.
Christof Koch:
Are they looking for a single person to fulfill all of those needs, or are they looking for multiple independent people?
Helen Fisher:
I think sometimes they don't get any of them. The system for romantic love takes off, and when you're madly in love with somebody, whole brain regions linked with decision making go down.
Heather Berlin:
So you become ... I want to talk just a little bit about how our perception changes in these different phases of love. There's, first, the phase of the falling in love, the ...
Christof Koch:
Infatuation.
Heather Berlin:
Infatuation.
Helen Fisher:
But it's not always the first phase. It could start with attachment, go to sex, go to friends with benefits, and then, boom, the brain circuitry. It's like a sleeping cat. Can be awakened at any time.
Heather Berlin:
You're calling that the romantic love?
Helen Fisher:
I call that romantic love.
Heather Berlin:
When that hits-
Christof Koch:
It can also happen on the first date.
Heather Berlin:
It could be love at first sight, when people-
Helen Fisher:
It can be. By the way, when I asked that question, about 55% of men have experienced ...
Christof Koch:
Love on first sight.
Helen Fisher:
Love at first sight, and about 49 or so women. Women are the picky sex. Men fall in love faster, they fall in love more often. When they meet somebody that they are in love with, they want to introduce them to friends and family sooner, which, from an ethological perspective, is mate-guarding. They want to move in sooner.
Men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. Men are the fragile sex. I have been trying to say that to the women's [inaudible 00:16:12] for 40 years.
Heather Berlin:
I love that.
Helen Fisher:
They're dedicated on the fact that-
Christof Koch:
Men are two and a half times more likely to commit suicide?
Helen Fisher:
Kill themselves. Yes.
Heather Berlin:
Can we just repeat that?
Helen Fisher:
Women do a good job of pretending it, but-
Heather Berlin:
Men are the fragile sex. Christof got a little disturbed by that, but yes, this is true.
Helen Fisher:
I try to tell people, one of the most astounding pieces of data that I've collected ... Once again, this ... Like a year ago, for Match, not Match members, was ... I put in a question which is about one-night stands. "Have you had them?" Then the next question is, "Why do you have them?" Men are two times more, going into a one-night stand, hoping to trigger a longer relationship with the person.
Heather Berlin:
We never would've thought that, right?
Helen Fisher:
No.
Heather Berlin:
[inaudible 00:17:03]
Helen Fisher:
I say this to people, and they look at me and say ... I'm not sure as I'm telling you, but, "I don't think we understand men, and I don't think we understand women."
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. We're trying.
Helen Fisher:
That's when ... Yes. We're trying to understand.
Christof Koch:
The idea is that, somehow, if I have sex with this person, then in myself I hope that this is going to trigger this feeling of being in love? Is that the idea?
Helen Fisher:
Yes.
Heather Berlin:
Sometimes it happens by accident. You go into something thinking it's going to be a one-night stand.
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Heather Berlin:
Then suddenly you're like, "What? I'm attached," or, "I'm feeling feelings for this person."
Helen Fisher:
Quick sex is dangerous.
Heather Berlin:
Yes. It's a risky proposition.
Helen Fisher:
It's a risky thing.
Heather Berlin:
Not just because of STDs, but because of emotion.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. No, but because you can fall in love with this person who you had no intention of liking.
When my husband ... We were just beginning to get serious, and he said to me ... He said-
Christof Koch:
At the time, he wasn't your husband?
Helen Fisher:
No. We went out for five years before we married. We went out for just a year. He was getting over a horrible, horrible divorce, and so he said, "I can't handle it, Helen. We'll have to be just friends." I said, "I'm happy to do that. We'll see what happens."
Heather Berlin:
She's like ...
Helen Fisher:
Anyway, he kisses me. I had made a deal with him, actually, that night. I was tired of this all ... Giving me a hug on the way home. I was sick of it. It'd been a year, and I wanted either to move on or get off the bus.
Anyway, so I made a deal with him. I don't know what came over me. We were having dinner, and then we were going to walk the High Line in New York and then play pool. I pulled my little cocktail napkin out and I said, "What do you want to get secretly if you win at pool?" I wrote down on my little card, "A real kiss." I didn't know what he'd think.
Anyway, we get to play pool. He creams me. I played pool like five times in life. He grew up with a pool table in his basement. What he said in his thing was, "Sex and clarity."
Christof Koch:
But that was unbeknownst to you at that-
Helen Fisher:
I had no idea. After playing pool, I pull his napkin out, and it says, "Sex and clarity." I said, "I get the sex part, but what do you have in mind for clarity?"
He wanted friends with benefits. I said to him, "I study love. When you start having sex with somebody, you can trigger the brain circuitry for romantic love. Are you willing to take that chance?"
Heather Berlin:
Was he clear?
Helen Fisher:
Five years later, we got married.
Heather Berlin:
He was clear about that?
Helen Fisher:
I married him at age 75, and I love that.
Christof Koch:
Congratulations.
Helen Fisher:
Thank you.
Christof Koch:
Congratulations. Since you're in that relationship, do you think your ... We would say, has your perception box expanded? Are you more curious, more compassionate? Are you more open with him? Does the world look different fundamentally to you?
Heather Berlin:
When you're in love and you're in a committed-
Christof Koch:
In this particular case.
Helen Fisher:
Oddly enough, no. I have always felt the compassion. I always felt the energy. I was always in love with him. I never was going to leave that boy.
Heather Berlin:
There is something about, I think, making that commitment public, or whatever, putting that stamp on it, that can change your perception of this person, because now it's known to the world as well. Because you're establishing that ... You're saying to your community, "We are committed."
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Heather Berlin:
It does change your perception. Just calling someone your-
Helen Fisher:
This is realer.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. It's like calling someone your wife or your husband. There's just some other ... There's a weight to that. There's something that we've-
Helen Fisher:
There's weight to it. Yes.
Heather Berlin:
That changes your perception of their relationship.
Christof Koch:
[inaudible 00:20:50]
Heather Berlin:
I want to make sure we touch on these two things, one of which is what happens when there's rejection, or when you're broken up with, or you break up and you're falling out of love, and how that changes your perception. Then I also want to talk about your concept of slow love, and how the internet is changing things, and AI, and what that means for love.
Helen Fisher:
Great.
Heather Berlin:
Let's start with the ... Because I'm both a neuroscientist and a clinical psychologist, and I work with patients, a lot of the time they're dealing with heartbreak. They come to me because they're just broken, in so much pain. They can't get out of bed. They can't go to work.
What is this? What's happening in the brain? They can't seem to get out of it.
Helen Fisher:
Right. Okay. For me, it's my largest contribution to humanity. It's very nice to be madly in love and have somebody happily in love with you. You're not a pest, you're not talking about it to everybody, and you know you're not killing yourself, you're not killing somebody else. You're in good shape.
But when you're rejected in love, that very thing ... Anyway, I decided I would put people who had just been dumped into the machine when they have not overcome it yet, they have not gotten too indifferent.
Christof Koch:
How do you find these people, internet ads?
Helen Fisher:
It's so easy. You go to colleges or you talk to people, and they want to figure out how they get out of this.
Christof Koch:
Talk about-
Helen Fisher:
They come to me. I leave my number. I have never used the internet, actually. It's on college campuses, and then through people that you know. I say, "Do you know anybody who is horribly rejected?" "Yes. My sister hasn't been out of bed for three days." That kind of thing.
Then I said, "Would you be willing to help science?" Instantly, they want to talk to me. That's very hard. I cry when other people cry, and I'm not a psychologist like you.
We talk a good deal on the phone. These machines are very hard to get, and takes a lot of time. You've got to get people who are really, really suffering, and they are really suffering.
Anyway, we put them in the machine, and this is what happens in the brain. The ventral tegmental area, still cooking along. You're still madly in love with the person. You've just been dumped. The brain-
Heather Berlin:
That's the ... Producing dopamine, and the-
Helen Fisher:
Producing dopamine for the focus, the motivation, losing weight.
Christof Koch:
Wait. Before we come to that, what's the actual experiment? Do you show them pictures, or do you-
Helen Fisher:
Okay. I show them two pictures. I ask, "Bring a picture of the man that you're in love" ... Not sex. We're not studying the sex drive. "Not a sexy picture, but a picture that instantly makes you feel that intense romance."
I also say to them, "Bring in another picture of somebody," basically the same age group and-
Christof Koch:
A control.
Helen Fisher:
A control. People bring in somebody they knew in college who bored them silly, or some girlfriend's boyfriend who you just ... But you have to have no positive feelings about the person and no negative feelings.
Heather Berlin:
Right. Like neutral person.
Helen Fisher:
Absolutely.
Heather Berlin:
You have a neutral person and then the person you were just broken up-
Helen Fisher:
Yes. The problem with going at this and this is that, when you're madly in love, you can't stop thinking about a person.
Heather Berlin:
So bleeds over into-
Helen Fisher:
It's going to bleed over into other ... So we did a distraction task. I would put a number on the screen, like 8224. They would have to look at that picture of the ...
Christof Koch:
Number?
Helen Fisher:
Number and think backwards in ...
Heather Berlin:
Threes?
Helen Fisher:
Sevens.
Heather Berlin:
Sevens? Yeah.
Christof Koch:
That's hard. It's definitely engaging.
Helen Fisher:
I say, "I don't care if you get it right or wrong, just do it," because it will drive all the blood away from these very emotional areas.
Heather Berlin:
What do you see, though? You see when they're pining, and ... The VTA still is active?
Helen Fisher:
The VTA is going, so they're pumping out the dopamine. Then they can't eat, and they can't sleep, and they can't stop thinking about it, and this and that. Also, part of the pallidum, the [inaudible 00:25:03]-
Heather Berlin:
Ventral pallidum?
Helen Fisher:
Yes. Ventral-
Heather Berlin:
And the basal ganglia.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. It's all in basal ganglia.
Christof Koch:
Striatum.
Helen Fisher:
It's associated with attachment. That lit up three areas linked with addiction. The largest one is the nucleus accumbens.
Heather Berlin:
Nucleus accumbens.
Helen Fisher:
For people listening, the nucleus accumbens becomes active for all of the addictions.
Heather Berlin:
Sometimes they call it the pleasure center of the brain.
Christof Koch:
In opioid addiction, alcohol addiction, nicotine addiction-
Helen Fisher:
Opiate.
Heather Berlin:
Cocaine.
Helen Fisher:
Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, the behavioral addictions, and also the others.
Heather Berlin:
[inaudible 00:25:44]
Christof Koch:
You're equating certain aspect of being in love with addiction?
Heather Berlin:
And then withdrawal.
Helen Fisher:
I have said that in many academic papers. It is an addiction. I think it's actually the most powerful addiction of the addictions.
Christof Koch:
But it's an adaptive addiction, and it's useful for evolution.
Helen Fisher:
Very useful, until you've been dumped. Then, of course, you're-
Heather Berlin:
Then it's literally like withdrawal you're going through.
Helen Fisher:
Absolutely. Also, there's an area for pain, physical pain. It's exactly the same area in the brain that you get the pain of a toothache. What's most interesting is-
Heather Berlin:
It's a physical pain that ... There's physical pain?
Helen Fisher:
Physical pain.
Christof Koch:
It feels like pain. Subjectively, it's still pain, whether it's physical or [inaudible 00:26:32]-
Heather Berlin:
But you're also seeing it in the brain.
Helen Fisher:
Most interesting to me, one of these three areas linked with craving and addiction ... The particular area also is associated with what the scientists who studied it ... Their gains and their losses. The brain is trying to work out, "What did I gain and what did I lose? Who will get the children? Who will invite me for Christmas?" Or something. "How much money will I lose?"
"What will I gain? I got rid of a drunk. I got rid of a wife beater. I got rid of somebody hurting my children." You go over this, and over this, and over this.
Christof Koch:
Also, you reevaluate your entire history of relationship, right? You spool it backwards and try to remember-
Helen Fisher:
"Why didn't I see this the night that he," or, "she" ... You've got a whole different perception of it, like you say.
There's several phases of it. The first thing that happens when somebody tells you they're on their way out is shock. That often lasts a couple weeks. Then comes hope. You're just hoping.
Then comes protest. You fight back. You try to seduce, you try to compromise. You try to go out with other people and make them jealous. It's like a puppy that you put into the kitchen without its mother, and it starts banging at the door and going in circles. You're just protesting for this. You might go into their office with a whole pile of flowers, and then he says something and you throw it at him.
Then comes resignation, where you give up. You finally know this can't happen. That's associated with despair, but I actually think ... This was done by a group of good psychiatrists, but the book is a little old. I think that you can feel the despair all the way through. After ... We got shock, hope, protest, resignation, and finally indifference. You wake up-
Heather Berlin:
My definition of indifference is that ... They go out, let's say. Normally, if you're still pining, and you're ... "Who are they going out with? Are they with somebody else?"
Helen Fisher:
Of course.
Heather Berlin:
"What if they're with somebody else right now?" And you're going on a ... But if you get to the point where they're out and you don't ... It's fine. You don't care what they're doing.
Christof Koch:
Wait. I'm going to object here.
Heather Berlin:
You're objecting?
Christof Koch:
Yeah. What about acceptance? Because you still spend so many months or years of your life with it, but I can still feel compassion for them much more than for another person that I've never met. Why does it have to be indifferent? Similar to when people talk about the ... Kubler-Ross, the various phases of bereavement, of grief.
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Christof Koch:
Finally, you accept, "This is how the world is."
Helen Fisher:
I think it's different personality styles that can still hope for them, and other people who will hate them forever. I think that's the thing.
Heather Berlin:
I think it depends on the nature of the relationship and what the breakup was, and-
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. Maybe the indifferent ... We should add one more. The last one that I've added. I only added the ...
Christof Koch:
Indifferent?
Helen Fisher:
The beginning ones, other psychiatrists had ... But indifference I added, and I got to think on that, but I think it's post-traumatic growth. You realize what mistakes you made, how you could have done it differently.
Christof Koch:
Learn from that. Yes.
Helen Fisher:
Then you have your story. When people come to me, I say, "You have to build your story." For me, one time a guy broke up with me and I had no idea.
Heather Berlin:
Right. Why. [inaudible 00:30:15] why.
Helen Fisher:
I couldn't figure this out. I finally said, "Helen, you will never figure it out. Make something up so that you can bury it."
Heather Berlin:
For closure.
Helen Fisher:
For closure.
Heather Berlin:
You need to have a narrative.
Christof Koch:
It's a perfect illustration of the perception box, because it's all about narrative. You need one particular narrative, and maybe you need a friend, or psychologist, or therapist to help you construct that. "It probably happened because this, that, and the other." Then you buy into it, and that forms your experience.
Heather Berlin:
But then you-
Helen Fisher:
A different perception box that you now can handle.
Christof Koch:
That you can live with. Yes. You can handle, you can live with.
Heather Berlin:
Your brain needs a narrative. It needs a story.
Christof Koch:
We need stories.
Heather Berlin:
It's looking for meaning. I had a long-term relationship. We broke up and never spoke again, and 15 years later, he came back to me and said, "Can we meet? I just need some closure."
Helen Fisher:
Oh, wow.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. We did. We met, and we talked for hours. It was really therapeutic, I think, for both of us, but it's like it doesn't go away. It's almost like [inaudible 00:31:13] revise the theory.
Helen Fisher:
[inaudible 00:31:15]
Christof Koch:
You still have feelings for them, obviously.
Heather Berlin:
You have to revise the theory, but-
Helen Fisher:
That's fine. That's what theories are for.
Heather Berlin:
Right. New evidence and revision.
I want to get to this concept of slow love and how that intersects with how we're dating in modern society with these dating sites. Evolution of the brain is slow, so we're still running on these older programs, right?
Helen Fisher:
Yeah.
Heather Berlin:
But it's intersecting with modern technology. You've talked a bit about that, and this concept of slow love. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Helen Fisher:
Absolutely. Thank you for reading that article.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. It's a great article.
Helen Fisher:
It was very meaningful to me. I call it slow love because, 50 years ago, a woman generally married around age 21. Now she marries around age 28, 29. Same with men. They married in the past at around 22 or 23, and now they marry at average at around 30.
They've got about 10 years of what I call pre-commitment time. Time to get to know themselves, time to have their one-night stands and then get rid of them. Time to live with somebody for a couple of years, get rid of it. Learn a lot more about how to handle grief, anger, joy, sadness, whatever, and romantic love, and feelings of attachment, et cetera.
This is not Match. I looked at the demographic yearbooks of the United Nations from 1947 to 2011, because I haven't written about it since. As it turns out, the longer you court and the later you wed, the more likely you are to remain together in 80 cultures.
The other thing that's part of that is we are now meeting on the internet more than through a friend. The last time I looked about, "Where did you meet your last first date?" 40% of singles said, "On the internet," 25% said, "Through a friend," and less than 10% said, "At work," "In school," et cetera. I read an article from the University of Chicago that said, if you meet on the internet, not just Match, but anywhere on the internet as opposed to off the internet, you're less likely to divorce.
I thought to myself, "What difference does it make? You can meet somebody in a hotel lobby. You can meet them at a concert. You can meet them at the airport. Why would meeting somebody on the internet as opposed to off the internet be less inclined to divorce?"
I did my own study through Match, and I looked at people who are doing their dating on the internet as opposed to off the internet. As it turns out, people who date ... I don't even like the word date. These are not dating sites, they are introducing sites. That's all they are. Anyway, people who met on the internet as opposed to off the internet were more likely to be fully employed, more likely to have higher education, and more likely to be looking for a committed relationship.
Christof Koch:
On the internet?
Helen Fisher:
On the internet than off the internet. When you think about it ... Okay. Off the internet, you walk and meet somebody in a bar, you don't know what they're looking for or what's going on. We have this assumption that, if it's off the internet, it's more natural. All these internet sites are is introducing sites. The only real algorithm is your own brain. We can give you somebody who's the right size and shape, and background and interest, et cetera.
Christof Koch:
Do you think technology really hasn't fundamentally affected love because ultimately it's a brain system?
Helen Fisher:
No. It's the brain. You can meet more people. You can meet people faster. You can meet people who live farther away that you'd never run into.
Christof Koch:
It's actually better for meeting a possible right match?
Helen Fisher:
Yes, because they are more likely to be ...
Christof Koch:
Matched to-
Helen Fisher:
Better educated, fully employed, and looking for a real thing.
Heather Berlin:
And they're there for this explicit purpose.
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Heather Berlin:
They're looking for someone.
Helen Fisher:
What really happens is you go out and meet somebody, and when you go out and meet somebody, your own brain cuts in. You assess them. You parade the way you always did. You laugh the way you always did. You talk about what you always did. It's the only real algorithm. But what these internet sites do, including Match, definitely, is just give you people to meet.
Christof Koch:
More choices.
Helen Fisher:
One of the problems is they give too many choices.
Heather Berlin:
That is a problem.
Helen Fisher:
It's because this is-
Heather Berlin:
There's this illusion that there's so many more people that-
Helen Fisher:
And people are picking-
Christof Koch:
Decision paralysis.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. You know the study that the brain can only cope with five to nine choices?
Heather Berlin:
But the other thing is that-
Christof Koch:
Can I quote something from Slow Love?
Heather Berlin:
Sure. Quote. [inaudible 00:36:31]
Helen Fisher:
[inaudible 00:36:31]
Heather Berlin:
Yes.
Christof Koch:
I love this article. It's just in your last paragraph, which is very inspirational, I find very unusual. "Love is not dead, courtship is not ruined, and sex has not replaced emotional intimacy. Our romantic and sexual lives are simply adopting to our new environment. In fact, with the current marriage revolution towards slow love, we may see more happy and enduring partnerships in the digital age."
I find it remarkable because everyone commiserate about social media, and AI, and how everything is going from bad to worse.
Helen Fisher:
They don't understand the brain. When you go out and you meet the person, you're doing it the way they did a million years ago.
Heather Berlin:
It's just another way to get there.
Helen Fisher:
People complain about these dating sites. I was doing something with this guy and he said, "Helen, I went out on 30 dates recently, one a night for a month." He said, "I can't find anybody." I said, "That's your problem." Once you've met, and I mean met ...
Christof Koch:
In person, you mean?
Helen Fisher:
In person or video chatting, which has really risen. This is the way to go, so that you actually see them. That's the way brains worked for millions of years. You've got to meet them. I say, after you've met nine people, stop. Get off the dating site and get to know at least one of these people more.
There's one question that I ask all the time on this Singles in America study. That is, have you ever fallen madly in love with somebody who you initially did not find attractive? Every year that I've asked it, the first year was I don't know how many years ago, maybe 2012, it went up from something like 22% to 34%. This past year it was 49%.
Christof Koch:
That's one in two.
Helen Fisher:
They're giving people a chance.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. Exactly. I always say that to my patients. "I understand you're not physically attracted at first, but give them a chance and you might just get there."
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Heather Berlin:
That speaks to this point of ... Love is something even deeper. It's deeper than that initial attraction. There's these different kinds of love, and we have to be open to letting these other brain systems come online.
We end every episode by asking a few of the perception box questions. I don't know which question Christof chose, and he doesn't know which one I'll be asking. Here we go.
Christof Koch:
Heather, who are you still trying to please?
Heather Berlin:
Who am I still trying to please?
Helen Fisher:
That's a good question for me too.
Christof Koch:
After all these years.
Heather Berlin:
You're going to answer it too.
Helen Fisher:
That was a smart one.
Heather Berlin:
Both of us are going to answer. Who am I still trying to please?
Christof Koch:
Yes. In 2024.
Heather Berlin:
That's a really good question. My stock answer ... It used to be my father. I was always trying to please my father because nothing was ever good enough. If you get a 99 on a test, "Why didn't you get 100? What did you get wrong?" I was always trying to please him, I think, but now I think I've transitioned so that I'm still just trying to please myself.
Helen Fisher:
That's good.
Christof Koch:
That's good.
Heather Berlin:
That sounds weird, but-
Christof Koch:
No, it sounds mature.
Heather Berlin:
Maybe it's narcissistic, I don't know, but I want to-
Christof Koch:
Both.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah, or both. I think it's healthy. I think I'm trying to find what makes me happy and move in that direction, and not trying to please others so much anymore.
Helen Fisher:
I can answer it in one word.
Heather Berlin:
Okay.
Helen Fisher:
Everyone.
Christof Koch:
That's a lot of people.
Helen Fisher:
It's a very bad trait.
Heather Berlin:
Approval seeking.
Helen Fisher:
It's a very bad trait. How about you? What's your answer?
Heather Berlin:
Oh, yeah. We're turning it onto you now.
Christof Koch:
It used to be my mom, just like your dad, but now it's more abstract. I'm trying to live by some ethical rules, and I try to follow those ethical precepts. If I violate those, then I feel very bad and guilty about it.
Heather Berlin:
Okay. You're trying to please the greater ethical, the ...
Christof Koch:
Yeah. I have a system that I've tried since many years to follow, because I think it's the right way to live and to act. If you fall short of that, then you get a bad feeling, which is as it should be.
Heather Berlin:
Got it. Okay. Here is my question for both of you. What have you not forgiven yourself for and why? What are you afraid of? What will happen if you do?
Helen Fisher:
I know my answer. I think mine goes back to the people pleasing. It's just ridiculous.
Heather Berlin:
But you don't forgive yourself for it? You don't forgive yourself for-
Helen Fisher:
Maybe it's anger. I'm not an angry person, and occasionally now I've gotten angry and ...
Christof Koch:
Angry at?
Helen Fisher:
At somebody for saying something that was cruel, but I was angry with myself for expressing anger. I feel as if it's not me. Most of the time in life, I just slide out of the way, get it over with.
I don't like it. I don't like feeling anger. I want to accept the situation for what it is and move on, which is what I generally do, and I have not forgiven myself.
Heather Berlin:
What you have to do is accept and forgive yourself. Accept yourself as you are, and for feeling the anger, and it's okay.
Christof Koch:
Controlled anger ... I think it's useful. It's adaptive. If somebody does say something cruel, I think it's important to signal them that this was uncalled for.
Helen Fisher:
"This doesn't work."
Christof Koch:
"This is not good."
Helen Fisher:
Yeah.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. It's adaptive, so it's okay to feel anger. Don't be angry at yourself for feeling anger. Now I feel like I'm doing therapy-
Helen Fisher:
I [inaudible 00:42:28] myself for feeling anger. I am.
Christof Koch:
If you feel angry and out of control, then obviously it's not good.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah.
Heather Berlin:
Right.
Christof Koch:
You have to be still in control.
Helen Fisher:
I wrote to her and told her what-
Christof Koch:
This is a specific individual?
Helen Fisher:
This person I've ... Happened this week. But I didn't let her know I was furious at her, I just told her why I felt this was incorrect behavior on her part, but I didn't ... But I still don't like out-of-control anger. I'm not an angry person. That was not me. It annoys me that I couldn't be myself.
Christof Koch:
Guess what I've not forgiven myself for, particularly as I get older? That I'm an egoist. I do things because I like them. I love to write books. I like to be with my family. I help my family out, et cetera, but that's all my close family, rather. I feel what other people are doing, are trying to go out in the world and actually change the world or certain aspects of the world for better, and I just don't feel call upon doing that. It's more about me and my reality.
Heather Berlin:
You haven't forgiven yourself for that fact?
Christof Koch:
Yeah. I feel I should do better, I should do more, because there's so many people that need help, that need our compassion actively to help them lead better lives. Rather than doing that by going out and somehow starting an NGO and directly helping people, I do it in different ways that are more conducive to what I like doing.
This is something my mom said when I was eight years old, and it stuck with me ever since. "Christof, you are too much of an egoist," and here it resurfaces 60 years later.
Heather Berlin:
You haven't forgiven yourself for your egocentricity?
Christof Koch:
I haven't forgiven myself.
Heather Berlin:
You feel guilty about it?
Christof Koch:
Obviously I do fine, but I feel somewhat ... There's always a residue of guilt, yes.
Heather Berlin:
You were raised Catholic, right?
Christof Koch:
Yes.
Heather Berlin:
Does that-
Christof Koch:
It's big about ... Probably it doesn't help, because guilt is one of the gluing blocks of Catholicism. You're supposed to feel guilty for certain-
Heather Berlin:
Are you afraid of something if you forgive yourself? What are you afraid of? Why not forgive yourself?
Christof Koch:
The realization that I'm not quite the person I may have aspired to earlier in my life.
Heather Berlin:
I forgive you.
Christof Koch:
Thank you.
Heather Berlin:
Thank you for joining us today. This was amazing.
Helen Fisher:
Aww
Christof Koch:
Thank you very much, Helen. This was wonderful.
Helen Fisher:
Thank you.
Heather Berlin:
A real highlight, as always, and you're wonderful.
If you'd like to learn more about your own perception box, spend some time this week answering the same perception box questions that we asked our guest, and check out other questions on the website at unlikelycollaborators.com. You can also subscribe to our YouTube channel and watch the show, or listen wherever you get your podcasts.
Why Did We Evolve to Feel Romantic Love? with Dr. Helen Fisher
We long for love. We die for love. We kill for love. But why do we love? Cohosts Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christoph Koch ask this question to Helen Fisher, PhD. who dedicated her career to researching romantic love. In this episode of Science of Perception Box, we explore how the act of being in love or out of love changes how we view ourselves and the world around us.
Dr. Fisher was a biological anthropologist, Senior Research Fellow at The Kinsey Institute, and Chief Science Advisor to Match.com. She used brain scanning (fMRI) to study the neural systems associated with the sex drive, romantic love, attachment, rejection, love addiction, long-term partnership happiness, and the biological foundations of human personality. She conducted extensive research on the evolution, biology, and psychology of human sexuality, monogamy, adultery, and divorce.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend about the show.
Christof Koch:
If you have been a long-time follower of Dr. Helen Fisher's work, you may have already learned the sad news that she passed away in August of 2024.
Heather Berlin:
Helen was a dear colleague, friend, and mentor. She was a pioneer in anthropology. We'll miss her very much.
Christof Koch:
We're grateful to have recorded this interview with her a few months before her passing.
Heather Berlin:
We hope that this conversation honors her legacy, a foundational research on the human circuitry of love and attraction.
Helen Fisher:
They pine for love, they live for love, they kill for love, and they die for love.
Elizabeth Koch:
Hi. I'm Elizabeth Koch. We all live inside our own personal private perception box built by our genes and the physical, social, and cultural environment in which we were born and raised. In this podcast, we explore how, although the walls of this mental box are always present, they can expand in states like awe, wonder, and curiosity, or contract in response to anxiety, fear, and anger.
I'd like to introduce our esteemed hosts, two incredible and distinguished minds, Dr. Heather Berlin, professor of psychiatry and neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City, and Dr. Christof Koch, chief scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current meritorious investigator and former president of the Allen Institute for Brain Science. Welcome to the Science of Perception Box.
Heather Berlin:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Science of Perception Box. I'm your co-host, Dr. Heather Berlin.
Christof Koch:
And I'm your co-host, Dr. Christof Koch.
Heather Berlin:
Every week we feature an aspect of the science of perception box, highlighting the latest research together with our expert guests. This week on Science of Perception Box, we explore the powerful forces of love and heartbreak in the brain.
I cannot imagine a more groundbreaking and qualified researcher to explore this topic with on the show than Dr. Helen Fisher. Dr. Helen Fisher is a biological anthropologist. She's conducted extensive research on the evolution, biology, and psychology of human sexuality, monogamy, adultery, and divorce. She can also speak to the neural chemistry of romantic love and attachment, why we fall in love with one person rather than another, plus all the current trends of human relationships, hooking up, friends with benefits, and online dating, to name a few.
Dr. Fisher is a senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute at Indiana University and the chief science advisor to the internet dating site Match.com. She's also written six books, including Anatomy of Love, Why We Love, and Why Him? Why Her? If you've ever had a heartbreak or had a hard time falling in love, or even if you're happily head over heels, you're going to want to hear this.
First we want to open it up with our connection to love. Christof, has the experience of love or the experience of heartbreak changed your perception box?
Christof Koch:
It changes everything, because love fundamentally changes what I perceive, which is my reality, which is the only thing I know about the world. It changes it in untold ways, both the beginning of love, as well if love ends. Suddenly reality changes. The very same reality appears very, very different.
Heather Berlin:
It changes for you in what way?
Christof Koch:
Early on, the world is in fluorescent color. Everything's intoxicated. You need much less sleep. You're hyper excited. You constantly think about the person you love. You're obsessed with him or her.
Then, when you fall out of love or when there's a breakup, the very same things that were attractive ... They turn into opposite. They turn like, "I hate this thing about her. I hate this habit." But it's still the same person and the same reality, it just appears very different.
I think it's a beautiful instance of this construction we call the perception box, that our mind and our brain constructs what we perceive to be reality. Love shows how it can dramatically change more than anything else on the planet.
Heather Berlin:
It's almost like, when you're falling in love, it's your perception box is expanding, and when you're falling out of love or been heartbroken, it contracts.
Christof Koch:
It contracts. Yes.
Heather Berlin:
There's this great scene in this film, 500 Days of Summer, which takes you through the falling-in-love phase and then the breakup phase. In the beginning, he's like, "I love her little heart-shaped mole on her neck, and the way she eats," and this and that. Then, by the end, they're broken up. "I hate that horrible blotch on her neck and the sound she makes when she chomps her food."
Christof Koch:
That's exactly-
Heather Berlin:
It's the same stimuli, but you see it in two different ways.
Helen, do you have any insight into this? Why does our perception change when we're falling in love, when we're falling out of love, when we've been rejected?
Helen Fisher:
The brain changes and you see the world differently. The opposite of love is not hate. They run along a lot of the same channels. The opposite of love is indifference. That's when you're free.
Heather Berlin:
That's a really poignant point, because when you break up and you have all the anger and you hate-
Helen Fisher:
You're equally focused. You wake up thinking about it, you go to bed thinking about it. You run through all of the day, and what you used to love and why you can't stand it now. You go through all that.
When you hate somebody, you spend the same amount of energy as when you love them, perhaps even more. People ... They pine for love, they live for love, they kill for love, and they die for love. I think it's mankind's most powerful drive.
It's a drive. I found that in the brain. It comes from the lowest centers of the brain. In fact, the basic factory, the ventral tegmental area, which I'm sure you both know about, the VTA ...
Christof Koch:
The VTA.
Helen Fisher:
Makes the dopamine that gives you that focus, the motivation, the craving, the thing. It lies right next to the factory that orchestrates thirst and hunger. Thirst and hunger keep you alive today, romantic love drives you to form a partnership and send your DNA into tomorrow.
Of course, when you're rejected in love, you've lost that opportunity to send your DNA into tomorrow. People will say, "Why don't we get over this?" The bottom line is that, when you're dumped, you've certainly ... You may have lost your children, the cat, the dog, the neighbors, the rituals of Christmas, or Hanukkah, or something else, but what you really lost ... If you're not married to the person and you're planning to marry them, you've lost your ability to send your DNA into tomorrow.
Christof Koch:
The function of love is ...
Helen Fisher:
Ultimately, that ...
Christof Koch:
Progeny.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. That survival.
Christof Koch:
To have progeny to send your DNA down to the next generation.
Helen Fisher:
Ask anybody in the street, they wouldn't say that. They'd say ... They wouldn't ... The other thing is that, if you're actually married to somebody and you have children, you've lost mankind's greatest prize, a mating partner.
Heather Berlin:
Still, people fall in and out of love well past the point, for women, when they can even have children. Is this program just ... It's a remnant? It just keeps running?
Helen Fisher:
I remember sitting down on a Saturday morning, summer. The windows were all up. I thought, "Why would this brain circuitry remain?" the point is lost. But then I thought, but I do-
Christof Koch:
It's lost after I've had, already, children.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. Then, I don't think there's any science answer, but I reasoned ... I do know that a good relationship with somebody enables you to live five to 10 years longer. It would be very adaptive, I'm an anthropologist, as you know, in hunting and gathering societies, to somebody who's way past the possibility of reproducing, to have a partner who likes you, who you love, that will be supportive as you get older, help you if you get sick.
Sex is very good for the body. Romance is very good for the body. Feelings of deep attachment are all, for different reasons, extremely good for your health. My hypothesis is that we sustain this powerful brain system throughout life.
I was once with an audience and I asked, "Does anybody have a child who's in love?" A woman raised her hand and she told me, she said, "Yeah. My son is. Every single time a particular little girl comes over, he just sits next to her and strokes her hair, and he seems depressed for an hour and a half afterwards." I asked her, I said, "How old is your child?" The mother said, "Two and a half."
It's not the sex drive. It's a different brain system. I certainly know somebody today who's in his nineties. It's a powerful brain system that is good for your health as well as reproduction.
Christof Koch:
What about compassion? Is it also possible that once it's had its function to procreate and generate the next generation, you can then channel it into compassion? Not just for a single individual, but maybe for all of humanity, all of creation?
Helen Fisher:
Yeah, I think so. First of all, we're talking about three things, sex drive being one system, feelings of romantic love being the second, and feelings of deep attachment being the third. I think they all evolved, basically, for reproduction.
The sex drive ... You can have sex with a lot of people you're not in love with. You're just trying things out, learning things. Romantic love is focused on only one person, and can drive you to attachment. With the attachment, a third brain system with a ... They're all adaptive.
Christof Koch:
Why do you need romantic love? Why can't you just go directly to the attachment phase?
Heather Berlin:
From sex to attachment?
Helen Fisher:
I think a lot of people do. Kids in college, all the time. Or it's people at work, they are deeply attached to people, but they're both married to somebody else, and ... Then things change, and people break up.
Christof Koch:
You can have one without the other?
Helen Fisher:
You can have sex without the other too, and you can have romantic love without feelings of attachment. You can be madly in love with somebody and have no plan to marry them. "They're not the right kind of person. Could never introduce them to my friends. There's some basic things about them I couldn't live with forever," et cetera.
People make this mistake all the time. They assume first you have the sex, then you get the romantic love, and then you move into attachment. They're not phases, they're brain systems. You can start being madly in love with somebody in the office long before you have sex with them. You can have sex with somebody and never fall in love with them, and you can have a deep attachment for somebody and then times change. Their brain system-
Heather Berlin:
Would that be like a friendship, though? Would it just ...
Helen Fisher:
Yeah.
Heather Berlin:
Attachment without romantic love or sex is a friendship, right?
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. It's a friendship. I think you can be madly in love with your children.
Christof Koch:
That helps you overcome the teenager years.
Heather Berlin:
And the toddler years, and all the years.
Helen Fisher:
It does. For example, you've got small children, you're madly in love with them. You can't see that the kid has three heads, is a bully, is a whole lot of things. You're in love with ... But you don't want to have sex with them.
Heather Berlin:
The Greeks talked about all these different types of love.
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Heather Berlin:
There's love of child, there's love of your partner, and there's different types of love. But what you're saying is that there's similar brain systems that are involved.
Helen Fisher:
There's three brain systems that are involved in all six of them. It's very interesting because, as you know, I work with Match.com. I ask all the time, "What are you looking for?" That's one of the questions.
Every year, I and a couple colleagues cook up about 200 questions. Some are trend questions that I ask every time, and some are new questions. The newest ones I can't wait to tell you about is AI, and also polyamory, and even Roe v. Wade. We always ask the question, "What are you looking for?"
Heather Berlin:
Do people know? Is that part of the problem, that people don't know what they're looking for, or-
Helen Fisher:
They do know. I give them about 30 boxes to check, and every year we would look at the boxes. Except after the pandemic, every single year ... We started in 2010, so we got data on 75,000 Americans. We don't poll the Match population, it's a national representative sample based on the US census. It's age 18 to 71 plus, rural, suburban, urban, every part of the country, gay, straight, and everything in the middle.
Christof Koch:
What's the most consistent finding since 2010?
Helen Fisher:
The top one that singles have wanted all over America is respect. That's number one. Number two is, "Somebody who I can trust and confide in." Number three is, "Somebody who makes me laugh," which drives up the dopamine system, makes you feel good, also can get you over rough spots. Four is, "Somebody who makes enough time for me," and five is, "Somebody I find physically attractive." Those are the basic five.
Christof Koch:
That's only number five.
Helen Fisher:
Those are the ... Yes.
Christof Koch:
The physical attractive.
Helen Fisher:
Yes, and it's gone down.
Christof Koch:
Not number one or two.
Helen Fisher:
No. It's gone down from five to about seven or eight, and the next two are, "Somebody who's emotionally mature," and, "Somebody who is a good" ...
Heather Berlin:
Person?
Helen Fisher:
To the community.
Heather Berlin:
I was like, what about being emotionally available, being a good person, being kind? Those would be my top ones.
Helen Fisher:
They're in there.
Heather Berlin:
They're just not in the top?
Helen Fisher:
But they're not ... No. They want respect. They want somebody can trust and confide in. They want to ... If somebody makes them laugh. Somebody who makes a enough time from them, particularly in this modern world, is something.
Christof Koch:
Are they looking for a single person to fulfill all of those needs, or are they looking for multiple independent people?
Helen Fisher:
I think sometimes they don't get any of them. The system for romantic love takes off, and when you're madly in love with somebody, whole brain regions linked with decision making go down.
Heather Berlin:
So you become ... I want to talk just a little bit about how our perception changes in these different phases of love. There's, first, the phase of the falling in love, the ...
Christof Koch:
Infatuation.
Heather Berlin:
Infatuation.
Helen Fisher:
But it's not always the first phase. It could start with attachment, go to sex, go to friends with benefits, and then, boom, the brain circuitry. It's like a sleeping cat. Can be awakened at any time.
Heather Berlin:
You're calling that the romantic love?
Helen Fisher:
I call that romantic love.
Heather Berlin:
When that hits-
Christof Koch:
It can also happen on the first date.
Heather Berlin:
It could be love at first sight, when people-
Helen Fisher:
It can be. By the way, when I asked that question, about 55% of men have experienced ...
Christof Koch:
Love on first sight.
Helen Fisher:
Love at first sight, and about 49 or so women. Women are the picky sex. Men fall in love faster, they fall in love more often. When they meet somebody that they are in love with, they want to introduce them to friends and family sooner, which, from an ethological perspective, is mate-guarding. They want to move in sooner.
Men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. Men are the fragile sex. I have been trying to say that to the women's [inaudible 00:16:12] for 40 years.
Heather Berlin:
I love that.
Helen Fisher:
They're dedicated on the fact that-
Christof Koch:
Men are two and a half times more likely to commit suicide?
Helen Fisher:
Kill themselves. Yes.
Heather Berlin:
Can we just repeat that?
Helen Fisher:
Women do a good job of pretending it, but-
Heather Berlin:
Men are the fragile sex. Christof got a little disturbed by that, but yes, this is true.
Helen Fisher:
I try to tell people, one of the most astounding pieces of data that I've collected ... Once again, this ... Like a year ago, for Match, not Match members, was ... I put in a question which is about one-night stands. "Have you had them?" Then the next question is, "Why do you have them?" Men are two times more, going into a one-night stand, hoping to trigger a longer relationship with the person.
Heather Berlin:
We never would've thought that, right?
Helen Fisher:
No.
Heather Berlin:
[inaudible 00:17:03]
Helen Fisher:
I say this to people, and they look at me and say ... I'm not sure as I'm telling you, but, "I don't think we understand men, and I don't think we understand women."
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. We're trying.
Helen Fisher:
That's when ... Yes. We're trying to understand.
Christof Koch:
The idea is that, somehow, if I have sex with this person, then in myself I hope that this is going to trigger this feeling of being in love? Is that the idea?
Helen Fisher:
Yes.
Heather Berlin:
Sometimes it happens by accident. You go into something thinking it's going to be a one-night stand.
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Heather Berlin:
Then suddenly you're like, "What? I'm attached," or, "I'm feeling feelings for this person."
Helen Fisher:
Quick sex is dangerous.
Heather Berlin:
Yes. It's a risky proposition.
Helen Fisher:
It's a risky thing.
Heather Berlin:
Not just because of STDs, but because of emotion.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. No, but because you can fall in love with this person who you had no intention of liking.
When my husband ... We were just beginning to get serious, and he said to me ... He said-
Christof Koch:
At the time, he wasn't your husband?
Helen Fisher:
No. We went out for five years before we married. We went out for just a year. He was getting over a horrible, horrible divorce, and so he said, "I can't handle it, Helen. We'll have to be just friends." I said, "I'm happy to do that. We'll see what happens."
Heather Berlin:
She's like ...
Helen Fisher:
Anyway, he kisses me. I had made a deal with him, actually, that night. I was tired of this all ... Giving me a hug on the way home. I was sick of it. It'd been a year, and I wanted either to move on or get off the bus.
Anyway, so I made a deal with him. I don't know what came over me. We were having dinner, and then we were going to walk the High Line in New York and then play pool. I pulled my little cocktail napkin out and I said, "What do you want to get secretly if you win at pool?" I wrote down on my little card, "A real kiss." I didn't know what he'd think.
Anyway, we get to play pool. He creams me. I played pool like five times in life. He grew up with a pool table in his basement. What he said in his thing was, "Sex and clarity."
Christof Koch:
But that was unbeknownst to you at that-
Helen Fisher:
I had no idea. After playing pool, I pull his napkin out, and it says, "Sex and clarity." I said, "I get the sex part, but what do you have in mind for clarity?"
He wanted friends with benefits. I said to him, "I study love. When you start having sex with somebody, you can trigger the brain circuitry for romantic love. Are you willing to take that chance?"
Heather Berlin:
Was he clear?
Helen Fisher:
Five years later, we got married.
Heather Berlin:
He was clear about that?
Helen Fisher:
I married him at age 75, and I love that.
Christof Koch:
Congratulations.
Helen Fisher:
Thank you.
Christof Koch:
Congratulations. Since you're in that relationship, do you think your ... We would say, has your perception box expanded? Are you more curious, more compassionate? Are you more open with him? Does the world look different fundamentally to you?
Heather Berlin:
When you're in love and you're in a committed-
Christof Koch:
In this particular case.
Helen Fisher:
Oddly enough, no. I have always felt the compassion. I always felt the energy. I was always in love with him. I never was going to leave that boy.
Heather Berlin:
There is something about, I think, making that commitment public, or whatever, putting that stamp on it, that can change your perception of this person, because now it's known to the world as well. Because you're establishing that ... You're saying to your community, "We are committed."
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Heather Berlin:
It does change your perception. Just calling someone your-
Helen Fisher:
This is realer.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. It's like calling someone your wife or your husband. There's just some other ... There's a weight to that. There's something that we've-
Helen Fisher:
There's weight to it. Yes.
Heather Berlin:
That changes your perception of their relationship.
Christof Koch:
[inaudible 00:20:50]
Heather Berlin:
I want to make sure we touch on these two things, one of which is what happens when there's rejection, or when you're broken up with, or you break up and you're falling out of love, and how that changes your perception. Then I also want to talk about your concept of slow love, and how the internet is changing things, and AI, and what that means for love.
Helen Fisher:
Great.
Heather Berlin:
Let's start with the ... Because I'm both a neuroscientist and a clinical psychologist, and I work with patients, a lot of the time they're dealing with heartbreak. They come to me because they're just broken, in so much pain. They can't get out of bed. They can't go to work.
What is this? What's happening in the brain? They can't seem to get out of it.
Helen Fisher:
Right. Okay. For me, it's my largest contribution to humanity. It's very nice to be madly in love and have somebody happily in love with you. You're not a pest, you're not talking about it to everybody, and you know you're not killing yourself, you're not killing somebody else. You're in good shape.
But when you're rejected in love, that very thing ... Anyway, I decided I would put people who had just been dumped into the machine when they have not overcome it yet, they have not gotten too indifferent.
Christof Koch:
How do you find these people, internet ads?
Helen Fisher:
It's so easy. You go to colleges or you talk to people, and they want to figure out how they get out of this.
Christof Koch:
Talk about-
Helen Fisher:
They come to me. I leave my number. I have never used the internet, actually. It's on college campuses, and then through people that you know. I say, "Do you know anybody who is horribly rejected?" "Yes. My sister hasn't been out of bed for three days." That kind of thing.
Then I said, "Would you be willing to help science?" Instantly, they want to talk to me. That's very hard. I cry when other people cry, and I'm not a psychologist like you.
We talk a good deal on the phone. These machines are very hard to get, and takes a lot of time. You've got to get people who are really, really suffering, and they are really suffering.
Anyway, we put them in the machine, and this is what happens in the brain. The ventral tegmental area, still cooking along. You're still madly in love with the person. You've just been dumped. The brain-
Heather Berlin:
That's the ... Producing dopamine, and the-
Helen Fisher:
Producing dopamine for the focus, the motivation, losing weight.
Christof Koch:
Wait. Before we come to that, what's the actual experiment? Do you show them pictures, or do you-
Helen Fisher:
Okay. I show them two pictures. I ask, "Bring a picture of the man that you're in love" ... Not sex. We're not studying the sex drive. "Not a sexy picture, but a picture that instantly makes you feel that intense romance."
I also say to them, "Bring in another picture of somebody," basically the same age group and-
Christof Koch:
A control.
Helen Fisher:
A control. People bring in somebody they knew in college who bored them silly, or some girlfriend's boyfriend who you just ... But you have to have no positive feelings about the person and no negative feelings.
Heather Berlin:
Right. Like neutral person.
Helen Fisher:
Absolutely.
Heather Berlin:
You have a neutral person and then the person you were just broken up-
Helen Fisher:
Yes. The problem with going at this and this is that, when you're madly in love, you can't stop thinking about a person.
Heather Berlin:
So bleeds over into-
Helen Fisher:
It's going to bleed over into other ... So we did a distraction task. I would put a number on the screen, like 8224. They would have to look at that picture of the ...
Christof Koch:
Number?
Helen Fisher:
Number and think backwards in ...
Heather Berlin:
Threes?
Helen Fisher:
Sevens.
Heather Berlin:
Sevens? Yeah.
Christof Koch:
That's hard. It's definitely engaging.
Helen Fisher:
I say, "I don't care if you get it right or wrong, just do it," because it will drive all the blood away from these very emotional areas.
Heather Berlin:
What do you see, though? You see when they're pining, and ... The VTA still is active?
Helen Fisher:
The VTA is going, so they're pumping out the dopamine. Then they can't eat, and they can't sleep, and they can't stop thinking about it, and this and that. Also, part of the pallidum, the [inaudible 00:25:03]-
Heather Berlin:
Ventral pallidum?
Helen Fisher:
Yes. Ventral-
Heather Berlin:
And the basal ganglia.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. It's all in basal ganglia.
Christof Koch:
Striatum.
Helen Fisher:
It's associated with attachment. That lit up three areas linked with addiction. The largest one is the nucleus accumbens.
Heather Berlin:
Nucleus accumbens.
Helen Fisher:
For people listening, the nucleus accumbens becomes active for all of the addictions.
Heather Berlin:
Sometimes they call it the pleasure center of the brain.
Christof Koch:
In opioid addiction, alcohol addiction, nicotine addiction-
Helen Fisher:
Opiate.
Heather Berlin:
Cocaine.
Helen Fisher:
Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, the behavioral addictions, and also the others.
Heather Berlin:
[inaudible 00:25:44]
Christof Koch:
You're equating certain aspect of being in love with addiction?
Heather Berlin:
And then withdrawal.
Helen Fisher:
I have said that in many academic papers. It is an addiction. I think it's actually the most powerful addiction of the addictions.
Christof Koch:
But it's an adaptive addiction, and it's useful for evolution.
Helen Fisher:
Very useful, until you've been dumped. Then, of course, you're-
Heather Berlin:
Then it's literally like withdrawal you're going through.
Helen Fisher:
Absolutely. Also, there's an area for pain, physical pain. It's exactly the same area in the brain that you get the pain of a toothache. What's most interesting is-
Heather Berlin:
It's a physical pain that ... There's physical pain?
Helen Fisher:
Physical pain.
Christof Koch:
It feels like pain. Subjectively, it's still pain, whether it's physical or [inaudible 00:26:32]-
Heather Berlin:
But you're also seeing it in the brain.
Helen Fisher:
Most interesting to me, one of these three areas linked with craving and addiction ... The particular area also is associated with what the scientists who studied it ... Their gains and their losses. The brain is trying to work out, "What did I gain and what did I lose? Who will get the children? Who will invite me for Christmas?" Or something. "How much money will I lose?"
"What will I gain? I got rid of a drunk. I got rid of a wife beater. I got rid of somebody hurting my children." You go over this, and over this, and over this.
Christof Koch:
Also, you reevaluate your entire history of relationship, right? You spool it backwards and try to remember-
Helen Fisher:
"Why didn't I see this the night that he," or, "she" ... You've got a whole different perception of it, like you say.
There's several phases of it. The first thing that happens when somebody tells you they're on their way out is shock. That often lasts a couple weeks. Then comes hope. You're just hoping.
Then comes protest. You fight back. You try to seduce, you try to compromise. You try to go out with other people and make them jealous. It's like a puppy that you put into the kitchen without its mother, and it starts banging at the door and going in circles. You're just protesting for this. You might go into their office with a whole pile of flowers, and then he says something and you throw it at him.
Then comes resignation, where you give up. You finally know this can't happen. That's associated with despair, but I actually think ... This was done by a group of good psychiatrists, but the book is a little old. I think that you can feel the despair all the way through. After ... We got shock, hope, protest, resignation, and finally indifference. You wake up-
Heather Berlin:
My definition of indifference is that ... They go out, let's say. Normally, if you're still pining, and you're ... "Who are they going out with? Are they with somebody else?"
Helen Fisher:
Of course.
Heather Berlin:
"What if they're with somebody else right now?" And you're going on a ... But if you get to the point where they're out and you don't ... It's fine. You don't care what they're doing.
Christof Koch:
Wait. I'm going to object here.
Heather Berlin:
You're objecting?
Christof Koch:
Yeah. What about acceptance? Because you still spend so many months or years of your life with it, but I can still feel compassion for them much more than for another person that I've never met. Why does it have to be indifferent? Similar to when people talk about the ... Kubler-Ross, the various phases of bereavement, of grief.
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Christof Koch:
Finally, you accept, "This is how the world is."
Helen Fisher:
I think it's different personality styles that can still hope for them, and other people who will hate them forever. I think that's the thing.
Heather Berlin:
I think it depends on the nature of the relationship and what the breakup was, and-
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. Maybe the indifferent ... We should add one more. The last one that I've added. I only added the ...
Christof Koch:
Indifferent?
Helen Fisher:
The beginning ones, other psychiatrists had ... But indifference I added, and I got to think on that, but I think it's post-traumatic growth. You realize what mistakes you made, how you could have done it differently.
Christof Koch:
Learn from that. Yes.
Helen Fisher:
Then you have your story. When people come to me, I say, "You have to build your story." For me, one time a guy broke up with me and I had no idea.
Heather Berlin:
Right. Why. [inaudible 00:30:15] why.
Helen Fisher:
I couldn't figure this out. I finally said, "Helen, you will never figure it out. Make something up so that you can bury it."
Heather Berlin:
For closure.
Helen Fisher:
For closure.
Heather Berlin:
You need to have a narrative.
Christof Koch:
It's a perfect illustration of the perception box, because it's all about narrative. You need one particular narrative, and maybe you need a friend, or psychologist, or therapist to help you construct that. "It probably happened because this, that, and the other." Then you buy into it, and that forms your experience.
Heather Berlin:
But then you-
Helen Fisher:
A different perception box that you now can handle.
Christof Koch:
That you can live with. Yes. You can handle, you can live with.
Heather Berlin:
Your brain needs a narrative. It needs a story.
Christof Koch:
We need stories.
Heather Berlin:
It's looking for meaning. I had a long-term relationship. We broke up and never spoke again, and 15 years later, he came back to me and said, "Can we meet? I just need some closure."
Helen Fisher:
Oh, wow.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. We did. We met, and we talked for hours. It was really therapeutic, I think, for both of us, but it's like it doesn't go away. It's almost like [inaudible 00:31:13] revise the theory.
Helen Fisher:
[inaudible 00:31:15]
Christof Koch:
You still have feelings for them, obviously.
Heather Berlin:
You have to revise the theory, but-
Helen Fisher:
That's fine. That's what theories are for.
Heather Berlin:
Right. New evidence and revision.
I want to get to this concept of slow love and how that intersects with how we're dating in modern society with these dating sites. Evolution of the brain is slow, so we're still running on these older programs, right?
Helen Fisher:
Yeah.
Heather Berlin:
But it's intersecting with modern technology. You've talked a bit about that, and this concept of slow love. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Helen Fisher:
Absolutely. Thank you for reading that article.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. It's a great article.
Helen Fisher:
It was very meaningful to me. I call it slow love because, 50 years ago, a woman generally married around age 21. Now she marries around age 28, 29. Same with men. They married in the past at around 22 or 23, and now they marry at average at around 30.
They've got about 10 years of what I call pre-commitment time. Time to get to know themselves, time to have their one-night stands and then get rid of them. Time to live with somebody for a couple of years, get rid of it. Learn a lot more about how to handle grief, anger, joy, sadness, whatever, and romantic love, and feelings of attachment, et cetera.
This is not Match. I looked at the demographic yearbooks of the United Nations from 1947 to 2011, because I haven't written about it since. As it turns out, the longer you court and the later you wed, the more likely you are to remain together in 80 cultures.
The other thing that's part of that is we are now meeting on the internet more than through a friend. The last time I looked about, "Where did you meet your last first date?" 40% of singles said, "On the internet," 25% said, "Through a friend," and less than 10% said, "At work," "In school," et cetera. I read an article from the University of Chicago that said, if you meet on the internet, not just Match, but anywhere on the internet as opposed to off the internet, you're less likely to divorce.
I thought to myself, "What difference does it make? You can meet somebody in a hotel lobby. You can meet them at a concert. You can meet them at the airport. Why would meeting somebody on the internet as opposed to off the internet be less inclined to divorce?"
I did my own study through Match, and I looked at people who are doing their dating on the internet as opposed to off the internet. As it turns out, people who date ... I don't even like the word date. These are not dating sites, they are introducing sites. That's all they are. Anyway, people who met on the internet as opposed to off the internet were more likely to be fully employed, more likely to have higher education, and more likely to be looking for a committed relationship.
Christof Koch:
On the internet?
Helen Fisher:
On the internet than off the internet. When you think about it ... Okay. Off the internet, you walk and meet somebody in a bar, you don't know what they're looking for or what's going on. We have this assumption that, if it's off the internet, it's more natural. All these internet sites are is introducing sites. The only real algorithm is your own brain. We can give you somebody who's the right size and shape, and background and interest, et cetera.
Christof Koch:
Do you think technology really hasn't fundamentally affected love because ultimately it's a brain system?
Helen Fisher:
No. It's the brain. You can meet more people. You can meet people faster. You can meet people who live farther away that you'd never run into.
Christof Koch:
It's actually better for meeting a possible right match?
Helen Fisher:
Yes, because they are more likely to be ...
Christof Koch:
Matched to-
Helen Fisher:
Better educated, fully employed, and looking for a real thing.
Heather Berlin:
And they're there for this explicit purpose.
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Heather Berlin:
They're looking for someone.
Helen Fisher:
What really happens is you go out and meet somebody, and when you go out and meet somebody, your own brain cuts in. You assess them. You parade the way you always did. You laugh the way you always did. You talk about what you always did. It's the only real algorithm. But what these internet sites do, including Match, definitely, is just give you people to meet.
Christof Koch:
More choices.
Helen Fisher:
One of the problems is they give too many choices.
Heather Berlin:
That is a problem.
Helen Fisher:
It's because this is-
Heather Berlin:
There's this illusion that there's so many more people that-
Helen Fisher:
And people are picking-
Christof Koch:
Decision paralysis.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah. You know the study that the brain can only cope with five to nine choices?
Heather Berlin:
But the other thing is that-
Christof Koch:
Can I quote something from Slow Love?
Heather Berlin:
Sure. Quote. [inaudible 00:36:31]
Helen Fisher:
[inaudible 00:36:31]
Heather Berlin:
Yes.
Christof Koch:
I love this article. It's just in your last paragraph, which is very inspirational, I find very unusual. "Love is not dead, courtship is not ruined, and sex has not replaced emotional intimacy. Our romantic and sexual lives are simply adopting to our new environment. In fact, with the current marriage revolution towards slow love, we may see more happy and enduring partnerships in the digital age."
I find it remarkable because everyone commiserate about social media, and AI, and how everything is going from bad to worse.
Helen Fisher:
They don't understand the brain. When you go out and you meet the person, you're doing it the way they did a million years ago.
Heather Berlin:
It's just another way to get there.
Helen Fisher:
People complain about these dating sites. I was doing something with this guy and he said, "Helen, I went out on 30 dates recently, one a night for a month." He said, "I can't find anybody." I said, "That's your problem." Once you've met, and I mean met ...
Christof Koch:
In person, you mean?
Helen Fisher:
In person or video chatting, which has really risen. This is the way to go, so that you actually see them. That's the way brains worked for millions of years. You've got to meet them. I say, after you've met nine people, stop. Get off the dating site and get to know at least one of these people more.
There's one question that I ask all the time on this Singles in America study. That is, have you ever fallen madly in love with somebody who you initially did not find attractive? Every year that I've asked it, the first year was I don't know how many years ago, maybe 2012, it went up from something like 22% to 34%. This past year it was 49%.
Christof Koch:
That's one in two.
Helen Fisher:
They're giving people a chance.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. Exactly. I always say that to my patients. "I understand you're not physically attracted at first, but give them a chance and you might just get there."
Helen Fisher:
Exactly.
Heather Berlin:
That speaks to this point of ... Love is something even deeper. It's deeper than that initial attraction. There's these different kinds of love, and we have to be open to letting these other brain systems come online.
We end every episode by asking a few of the perception box questions. I don't know which question Christof chose, and he doesn't know which one I'll be asking. Here we go.
Christof Koch:
Heather, who are you still trying to please?
Heather Berlin:
Who am I still trying to please?
Helen Fisher:
That's a good question for me too.
Christof Koch:
After all these years.
Heather Berlin:
You're going to answer it too.
Helen Fisher:
That was a smart one.
Heather Berlin:
Both of us are going to answer. Who am I still trying to please?
Christof Koch:
Yes. In 2024.
Heather Berlin:
That's a really good question. My stock answer ... It used to be my father. I was always trying to please my father because nothing was ever good enough. If you get a 99 on a test, "Why didn't you get 100? What did you get wrong?" I was always trying to please him, I think, but now I think I've transitioned so that I'm still just trying to please myself.
Helen Fisher:
That's good.
Christof Koch:
That's good.
Heather Berlin:
That sounds weird, but-
Christof Koch:
No, it sounds mature.
Heather Berlin:
Maybe it's narcissistic, I don't know, but I want to-
Christof Koch:
Both.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah, or both. I think it's healthy. I think I'm trying to find what makes me happy and move in that direction, and not trying to please others so much anymore.
Helen Fisher:
I can answer it in one word.
Heather Berlin:
Okay.
Helen Fisher:
Everyone.
Christof Koch:
That's a lot of people.
Helen Fisher:
It's a very bad trait.
Heather Berlin:
Approval seeking.
Helen Fisher:
It's a very bad trait. How about you? What's your answer?
Heather Berlin:
Oh, yeah. We're turning it onto you now.
Christof Koch:
It used to be my mom, just like your dad, but now it's more abstract. I'm trying to live by some ethical rules, and I try to follow those ethical precepts. If I violate those, then I feel very bad and guilty about it.
Heather Berlin:
Okay. You're trying to please the greater ethical, the ...
Christof Koch:
Yeah. I have a system that I've tried since many years to follow, because I think it's the right way to live and to act. If you fall short of that, then you get a bad feeling, which is as it should be.
Heather Berlin:
Got it. Okay. Here is my question for both of you. What have you not forgiven yourself for and why? What are you afraid of? What will happen if you do?
Helen Fisher:
I know my answer. I think mine goes back to the people pleasing. It's just ridiculous.
Heather Berlin:
But you don't forgive yourself for it? You don't forgive yourself for-
Helen Fisher:
Maybe it's anger. I'm not an angry person, and occasionally now I've gotten angry and ...
Christof Koch:
Angry at?
Helen Fisher:
At somebody for saying something that was cruel, but I was angry with myself for expressing anger. I feel as if it's not me. Most of the time in life, I just slide out of the way, get it over with.
I don't like it. I don't like feeling anger. I want to accept the situation for what it is and move on, which is what I generally do, and I have not forgiven myself.
Heather Berlin:
What you have to do is accept and forgive yourself. Accept yourself as you are, and for feeling the anger, and it's okay.
Christof Koch:
Controlled anger ... I think it's useful. It's adaptive. If somebody does say something cruel, I think it's important to signal them that this was uncalled for.
Helen Fisher:
"This doesn't work."
Christof Koch:
"This is not good."
Helen Fisher:
Yeah.
Heather Berlin:
Yeah. It's adaptive, so it's okay to feel anger. Don't be angry at yourself for feeling anger. Now I feel like I'm doing therapy-
Helen Fisher:
I [inaudible 00:42:28] myself for feeling anger. I am.
Christof Koch:
If you feel angry and out of control, then obviously it's not good.
Helen Fisher:
Yeah.
Heather Berlin:
Right.
Christof Koch:
You have to be still in control.
Helen Fisher:
I wrote to her and told her what-
Christof Koch:
This is a specific individual?
Helen Fisher:
This person I've ... Happened this week. But I didn't let her know I was furious at her, I just told her why I felt this was incorrect behavior on her part, but I didn't ... But I still don't like out-of-control anger. I'm not an angry person. That was not me. It annoys me that I couldn't be myself.
Christof Koch:
Guess what I've not forgiven myself for, particularly as I get older? That I'm an egoist. I do things because I like them. I love to write books. I like to be with my family. I help my family out, et cetera, but that's all my close family, rather. I feel what other people are doing, are trying to go out in the world and actually change the world or certain aspects of the world for better, and I just don't feel call upon doing that. It's more about me and my reality.
Heather Berlin:
You haven't forgiven yourself for that fact?
Christof Koch:
Yeah. I feel I should do better, I should do more, because there's so many people that need help, that need our compassion actively to help them lead better lives. Rather than doing that by going out and somehow starting an NGO and directly helping people, I do it in different ways that are more conducive to what I like doing.
This is something my mom said when I was eight years old, and it stuck with me ever since. "Christof, you are too much of an egoist," and here it resurfaces 60 years later.
Heather Berlin:
You haven't forgiven yourself for your egocentricity?
Christof Koch:
I haven't forgiven myself.
Heather Berlin:
You feel guilty about it?
Christof Koch:
Obviously I do fine, but I feel somewhat ... There's always a residue of guilt, yes.
Heather Berlin:
You were raised Catholic, right?
Christof Koch:
Yes.
Heather Berlin:
Does that-
Christof Koch:
It's big about ... Probably it doesn't help, because guilt is one of the gluing blocks of Catholicism. You're supposed to feel guilty for certain-
Heather Berlin:
Are you afraid of something if you forgive yourself? What are you afraid of? Why not forgive yourself?
Christof Koch:
The realization that I'm not quite the person I may have aspired to earlier in my life.
Heather Berlin:
I forgive you.
Christof Koch:
Thank you.
Heather Berlin:
Thank you for joining us today. This was amazing.
Helen Fisher:
Aww
Christof Koch:
Thank you very much, Helen. This was wonderful.
Helen Fisher:
Thank you.
Heather Berlin:
A real highlight, as always, and you're wonderful.
If you'd like to learn more about your own perception box, spend some time this week answering the same perception box questions that we asked our guest, and check out other questions on the website at unlikelycollaborators.com. You can also subscribe to our YouTube channel and watch the show, or listen wherever you get your podcasts.
How can parents embrace science in order to give their children the best possible environment to thrive in? Cognitive development expert Dr. Alison Gopnik joins us to discuss how navigating challenges fosters healthier adults, likening caregiving to being a gardener creating an environment where various ”plants” can thrive in different conditions. Exposing children to diverse environments helps them develop better coping mechanisms, akin to how the immune system strengthens against viruses.
Dr. Gopnik is a professor at the University of California at Berkeley, where she has taught since 1988. She is a world leader in cognitive science, particularly the study of children’s learning and development. She is the author of over 100 journal articles and several books including the best-selling and critically acclaimed popular books The Scientist in the Crib, The Philosophical Baby, and The Gardener and the Carpenter. She is a fellow of the Cognitive Science Society and the American Association for the Advancement of Science and a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
We long for love. We die for love. We kill for love. But why do we love? Cohosts Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christoph Koch ask this question to Helen Fisher, PhD. who dedicated her career to researching romantic love. In this episode of Science of Perception Box, we explore how the act of being in love or out of love changes how we view ourselves and the world around us.
Dr. Fisher was a biological anthropologist, Senior Research Fellow at The Kinsey Institute, and Chief Science Advisor to Match.com. She used brain scanning (fMRI) to study the neural systems associated with the sex drive, romantic love, attachment, rejection, love addiction, long-term partnership happiness, and the biological foundations of human personality. She conducted extensive research on the evolution, biology, and psychology of human sexuality, monogamy, adultery, and divorce.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend about the show.
What happens when an irredeemable person receives love, gratitude, and respect? After decades of drug and alcohol abuse, chef and television personality Andrew Zimmern learned firsthand.
As a teenager, Andrew Zimmern experienced deep pain when his mother became permanently disabled, and his father enforced a rule to avoid discussing feelings. Without an outlet, that pain grew into resentment and substance abuse. By 14, Zimmern was drinking daily, and his addiction followed him into adulthood, ultimately costing him his career, relationships, and home.
In January 1992, after hitting rock bottom, Zimmern attempted to take his own life. When he woke up, something shifted. For the first time, he asked for help. His friends intervened, sending him to rehab, where he began confronting his emotions and embracing a mindset of learning and giving.
Zimmern rebuilt his life, becoming a celebrated chef, author, and TV personality. Today, he credits that one vulnerable moment with saving his life and inspiring him to live with purpose and gratitude.
About Andrew Zimmern:
Andrew Zimmern is a chef, food writer, and television personality best known for hosting Bizarre Foods on the Travel Channel. A four-time James Beard Award winner, Zimmern has dedicated his career to exploring global cuisines and advocating for culinary diversity. Beyond television, he is a passionate philanthropist, focusing on hunger relief, food sustainability, and social justice. He founded the Andrew Zimmern Project to support food security initiatives and works with organizations like Second Harvest and Services for the Underserved. Through his work, Zimmern strives to create a more equitable food system and inspire cultural appreciation through cuisine.
The one phrase that changed Diana Nyad’s life, and set her on course to become the first person ever to conquer the 110 mile, 53 hour swim from Florida to Cuba.
At 64, Diana Nyad swam 110 miles from Cuba to Florida, facing jellyfish, exhaustion, and tough ocean currents for over 53 hours. But this feat was more than just physical - it was the result of a lifetime of mental endurance.
As a young swimmer, she faced sexual abuse from her coach, which derailed her Olympic dreams and left deep emotional scars. Instead of letting those experiences hold her back, she found a way to channel that pain into something powerful. She talks about developing a "steel trap mind," using her struggles as motivation to pursue her goals.
Diana's journey goes beyond breaking records. It’s a powerful reminder of the human spirit's ability to persevere and heal, no matter the odds. Her swim from Cuba to Florida, completed on her fifth attempt, showcases her incredible willpower and serves as an inspiration to people everywhere.
About Diana Nyad: Diana Nyad is an endurance swimmer, author, and motivational speaker best known for her 2013 record-breaking swim from Cuba to Florida at age 64. Completing the 110-mile journey without a shark cage, she demonstrated unparalleled resilience and determination. Nyad is also a bestselling author, journalist, and co-founder of EverWalk, a fitness initiative promoting community through walking. Her story of perseverance, chronicled in her memoir Find a Way, continues to inspire audiences worldwide.
“I saw that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered, and when I didn’t believe them, I didn’t suffer.”
Author and public speaker Byron Katie shares how she transformed her life after discovering ‘The Work’, a method for identifying the thoughts that cause pain and suffering. By asking herself four simple yet profound questions, she found a way to recover from her agoraphobia, reunite with her family, and begin teaching others how to heal.
Katie’s strategy for ending suffering lies in asking yourself four questions about the thoughts you’re having: Is it true? Can you absolutely know it’s true? How do you react when you believe it? Who are you without the thought?
By asking yourself these questions, Katie explains how you can begin to escape the mentalities that hold you back. Her method shows us that peace doesn’t come from changing the world—it comes from changing how we see it.
About Byron Katie: Byron Katie is an author and teacher who helps people find peace by questioning their stressful thoughts. In 1986, after years of depression, she experienced a life-changing realization that led her to create The Work, a simple process of self-inquiry. Her books, like Loving What Is and A Thousand Names for Joy, have touched millions. Through workshops and talks, Katie shares a path to clarity and freedom, helping people live with more acceptance and ease.
Our cultural lenses can expand our Perception Box or contract it, keeping us closed off to new opportunities. So how do we become aware of the personal influences that shape our perceptions? In this episode of Science of Perception Box, cohosts Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christoph Koch discuss the impact of cultural differences on identity and mindsets with guest Dr. Daphna Oyserman. Dr. Oyserman shares her insights on how small changes in context can significantly affect our mindset and choices, impacting our health and academic performance.
Dr. Daphna Oyserman is a Dean’s Professor of Psychology and Professor of Psychology and Education at the University of Southern California. Dr. Oyserman received a PhD in psychology and social work from the University of Michigan and served on the faculty of The Hebrew University, Jerusalem, before returning to the University of Michigan where she last held appointments as the Edwin J. Thomas Collegiate Professor of Social Work, Professor of Psychology, and Research Professor in the Institute for Social Research.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend about the show.
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Humans have a symbiotic relationship with plants. Plants coevolved to suit our desires for nourishment, beauty, and altering consciousness. Journalist Michael Pollan has investigated the human connection to plants. This week on Science of Perception Box, Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christof Koch ask Pollan about modern trends like ultra-processed foods, industrialized agriculture, and consciousness-altering drugs from plants including caffeine, cannabis, and psychedelics.
For more than 30 years, Michael Pollan has been writing books and articles about the places where the human and natural worlds intersect: on our plates, in our farms and gardens, and in our minds. Pollan is the author of eight books, six of which have been New York Times bestsellers. In 2003, Pollan was appointed the John S. and James L. Knight Professor of Journalism at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism and the director of the Knight Program in Science and Environmental Journalism. In 2020, along with Dacher Keltner and others, he cofounded the UC Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend about the show.
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Jim McKelvey, co-founder of Square, overcame a challenging upbringing marked by social isolation and family tragedy, channeling those experiences into a life defined by action, innovation, and iconoclasm. Though he’s undeniably earned his reputation as a business trailblazer, McKelvey remains uncomfortable with any attempts to mythologize his journey.
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As a child, Bob Stiller felt unmoored. His mother’s death was a loss that fueled anger, insecurity and, as a teenager, lots of partying. He founded rolling paper company E-Z Wider in 1971 and, a decade later, Green Mountain Coffee Roasters.
Sophia Amoruso (aka Nasty Gal) started a tiny online vintage clothing store that quickly turned into a $350 million business. Fame soon followed, but so did all of her insecurities.
Anxiety can make us feel like we’re trapped in our brain. So how do we open the door and gain freedom? This week in the inaugural episode of Science of Perception Box podcast, Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christof Koch invite Dr. Judson Brewer to delve into the roots of anxiety, its impact on our perception, and how curiosity can be the key to lasting change.
Dr. Judson Brewer studies the neural mechanisms of mindfulness. He is the Director of Research and Innovation at Brown University’s Mindfulness Center, where he’s also an Associate Professor at the School of Medicine. Dr. Brewer is a leading expert in the science of self-mastery and breaking habits. His books include Unwinding Anxiety, The Craving Mind, and The Hunger Habit.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend about the show.
Join renowned scientists Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christof Koch on the Science of Perception Box, where they delve into the Perception Box—a groundbreaking concept developed by Elizabeth R. Koch, that reveals how our beliefs, biases, and neural wiring shape our reality and define how we experience the world.
Through captivating conversations with expert guests like psychiatrist Dr. Judson Brewer, anthropologist Dr. Helen Fisher, and journalist Michael Pollan, the show explores how the Perception Box expands in states of awe, curiosity, and love, and contracts during fear, anxiety, or anger.
From mindfulness and romantic relationships to psychedelics and human connection, each episode uncovers transformative insights into unlocking greater awareness, fostering curiosity, and reshaping how we perceive the world.
New episodes drop every Thursday on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow the journey and redefine your reality.
Don’t call yourself “a writer,” just write. Ryan Holiday on how the labels you give yourself can hold you back.
Who would you be without all the labels and identities you’ve collected over the course of your life?
Ego, titles, and societal expectations often shape who we think we are—or who we think we should be. Author, and for simplicity's sake, bookstore owner, Ryan Holiday explains the simple question “What do you do?” can turn into a trap, making us cling to roles that don’t really define us. But what happens when you let go of these labels? What if, instead of focusing on the identity of being a writer, you focused on the act of writing itself?
As Holiday got older, he learned that being busy “doing the verb” is far more valuable than obsessing over the noun. It’s easy to get caught up in trying to fit into the “right” categories and titles, but that often means copying, comparing, and losing sight of what really matters.
About Ryan Holiday: Ryan Holiday is a bestselling author, marketer, and one of today’s leading voices in modern Stoicism. He’s known for taking ancient wisdom and making it relatable and practical for everyday life. Before becoming an author, he led marketing at American Apparel. Now, he writes about strategy, self-discipline, and leadership, weaving history into real-world advice.
When a group of first responders were asked to confront the Perception Box question, "What need inside of yourself have you been neglecting?", their raw and honest responses were deeply moving and sparked profound reflection.
This series (a collaboration with Jubilee Media) is designed for communities with shared experiences to spark deeper self-understanding and connection by sharing their answers to specially selected Perception Box questions. This highlights the power of vulnerability and the importance of creating safe spaces for honest conversations.
“I feel like I had to lose my sight to fully gain my vision.” John Furniss on how becoming blind led him to drug abuse, rehab, woodworking, and finally, to a fulfilling life.
John Furniss, also known as the Blind Woodsman, opens up about his journey from a difficult past to finding peace and purpose. After losing his sight as a teenager, John struggled for years to accept his new reality, battling inner turmoil and substance abuse along the way. It wasn't until he discovered woodworking through a vocational rehab program that he found a way to channel his creativity and start healing.
Woodworking became more than just a skill for John; it allowed him to bring the designs he imagined in his mind to life. This craft also led him to meet his wife, Annie, who has been a constant source of love and support. Through his work and his relationship, John found a sense of belonging and a new way of seeing the world. He reflects on how losing his sight actually helped him gain a clearer vision of who he is and what he’s meant to do, ultimately finding peace in embracing his true self.
About John Furniss:
John Furniss, known professionally as The Blind Woodsman, is a skilled woodworker, author, and disability advocate recognized for his meticulous hand-turned creations. After losing his sight at 16, John faced significant challenges adapting to life with total blindness. In his 20s, he found his passion for woodworking through a class designed for the blind, which led to the development of his unique craft.
Today, John’s work has been featured on platforms such as Good Morning America and The Kelly Clarkson Show. He and his wife, Anni, who is also an artist, use their social media platforms to share their work and raise awareness about disability and mental health. John’s expertise in woodworking and his contributions to the art community have established him as a respected figure in his field.
Kaelynn Partlow shares her story about life with autism, ADHD, and dyslexia, and how finding the right diagnosis helped her embrace her neurodivergent identity.
Kaelynn Partlow, an author, autism advocate, and registered behavior technician, shares her own experiences living with autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and more. She talks about how these diagnoses shifted her self-perception from feeling "stupid" to understanding her unique challenges and strengths.
Kaelynn opens up about the misunderstandings neurodivergent people face and the difficulty of connecting in a world that often doesn't accommodate different ways of thinking. She also shares her fears—like wondering if her social difficulties will ever improve—and how she copes with loneliness, especially when not focused on work.
Through it all, Kaelynn emphasizes the value of recognizing your own strengths, even when it’s hard. By taking on challenges and thriving under pressure, she found new opportunities, from public speaking to creative writing. Her story shows that growth often comes from facing fears and redefining success on your own terms.
About Kaelynn Partlow:
In 2015, Kaelynn Partlow joined Project Hope Foundation as a Registered Behavior Technician. She is now a Lead Technician, providing services to middle and high-school-aged clients and contributing to staff training development.
In 2021, Kaelynn was featured on the Netflix series Love On The Spectrum. She has also been a guest on numerous national podcasts and has published several articles, offering insights from an autistic perspective.
With a large following on various social media platforms, Kaelynn uses her reach for autism advocacy, connecting with millions globally. In addition to her online work and role at Project Hope, she is an international public speaker, passionate about sharing tangible strategies for best practices when interacting with individuals on the autism spectrum
Your brain is wired to repeat the familiar. Change this wiring, and it will change your life.
Nicole Vignola, a neuroscientist and organizational psychologist, explains how deeply rooted beliefs can limit our potential and keep us trapped in patterns of thought. These perceptions, often shaped by our upbringing and environment, aren’t necessarily our own—but they can be changed.
Nicole shares how the brain’s natural biases, like negativity bias and confirmation bias, reinforce these limiting beliefs. However, with the right approach, it’s possible to reshape our mental patterns. By practicing metacognition—observing and naming our thoughts—we can start to rewire our perception and create new, empowering narratives.
Our brains are capable of change at any age. By focusing on small wins and challenging automatic thoughts, we can break free from old beliefs and begin using a mindset that better serves ourselves and our futures.
About Nicole Vignola:
Nicole Vignola is a neuroscientist, author and corporate consultant. With a BSc in Neuroscience and an MSc in Organizational Psychology, Nicole works with companies and individuals worldwide, educating them on the science of human optimisation, health and longevity, and how to enable employees to perform better in their daily lives and in turn, bring peak performance to the workplace. Recent clients include Lloyds Bank, Makers Mark and Smeg Ltd.
Expanding your worldview starts with understanding your brain. Stanford neuroscientist David Eagleman explains.
David Eagleman, a neuroscientist at Stanford and host of the Inner Cosmos podcast, explores how our brains shape the reality we experience and why we often accept our perceptions as the only truth. From a young age, we develop our understanding of the world based on limited experiences and biases, which can lead us to form narrow views about what's true.
Eagleman explains that our genetics and life experiences wire our brains in unique ways, meaning that each of us sees the world a little differently. He introduces the idea of "perceptual genomics," which looks at how slight genetic differences influence our perception of reality. He also discusses how our brains naturally create in-groups and out-groups, a tendency rooted in evolution that affects how much empathy we feel for others.
To overcome these biases, Eagleman suggests that we start by recognizing our own prejudices, understanding the tactics of dehumanization, and connecting with others through shared interests. This approach helps us appreciate the diverse realities others experience, ultimately contributing to a more empathetic and understanding society.
About David Eagleman:
David Eagleman is a neuroscientist at Stanford University and an internationally bestselling author. He is co-founder of two venture-backed companies, Neosensory and BrainCheck, and he also directs the Center for Science and Law, a national non-profit institute. He is best known for his work on sensory substitution, time perception, brain plasticity, synesthesia, and neurolaw.
Challenging the loneliness stigma can change your life. Here’s how to start.
From a young age, many of us are taught that being alone means something is wrong, leading to negative thought patterns that reinforce feelings of isolation. Kasley Killam, author of The Art and Science of Connection and an expert in social health, explains how these perceptions of loneliness can shape our experiences and influence our lives.
According to Killam, this stigma around loneliness can trigger a stress response in the body, affecting both mental and physical well being. However, by challenging these narratives and reminding ourselves of how much control we really have, it’s possible to redirect our mindsets. It also helps, she says, to understand the difference between individualistic and collectivist cultures, and how each one can influence the way we interpret and discuss our feelings with others.
For those who have struggled with loneliness or felt trapped in a cycle of negative thinking, this perspective can help us break free. By shifting our thought patterns, we can transform our relationships, enhance our sense of connection, and improve our overall well-being.
About Kasley Killam:
Kasley Killam is a social health expert, author, and advocate focused on strengthening connections and enhancing community well-being. With a background in behavioral science and public health from Harvard University, she is a leading voice on the impact of social relationships on mental and physical health.
As the founder of Social Health Labs, Killam collaborates with organizations to develop innovative solutions for combating loneliness and social isolation. Her work has been featured in major publications, and she is a sought-after speaker on the importance of social well-being in creating healthier, more resilient communities.
Ever wonder why your partner goes Tasmanian Devil in traffic jams while you just shrug? Or why you have such a hard time setting boundaries with parents when your sibling has no problem saying "hell no!" Everyone has something that triggers panic or turns their blood cold…and it all starts with the story you made up about yourself when you were too young to know the difference…your Perception Box Seed Story.
A group of LGBTQ+ individuals courageously answered the Perception Box question, "Who or what have you left behind on your journey to become who you are today?" Their honest and insightful responses were deeply moving.
This series (a collaboration with Jubilee Media) is designed for communities with shared experiences to spark deeper self-understanding and connection by sharing their answers to specially selected Perception Box questions. This highlights the power of vulnerability and the importance of creating safe spaces for honest conversations.
How has Kel Mitchell navigated self-doubt, isolation, and the desire to “hit the off button”? He says it’s all faith, community, and personal forgiveness.
After his debut on Nickelodeon, Kel Mitchell began a life-long career as an actor and comedian. He got married, started a family, and basked in professional success. However, behind the scenes, he faced intense personal hardships that pushed him to the brink, testing his resilience and strength in ways he never imagined.
Kel guides us through the lowest points of his life, showing us how faith in himself and his religion helped him rebuild and achieve a fulfilling existence. He reminds us that blessings can often be hidden in hardships and that mistakes play a crucial role in shaping who we are.
By expressing his pain and opening up to others about the things he was struggling with, he was able to find unity, community, and support from those who had experienced similar drawbacks. Mitchell stresses the importance of understanding others, and how deep relationships can change – and even save – lives.
If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255), text “STRENGTH” to the Crisis Text Line at 741-741 or go to suicidepreventionlifeline.org.
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Kel Mitchell is a two-time Emmy Award-nominated actor, producer, comedian, and youth pastor hailing from Chicago, Illinois.
Mitchell executive produced and appeared in the new iteration of the beloved Nickelodeon series All That, bringing him full circle to the original award-winning show that was his big break. All That was Nickelodeon's longest-running live-action series, with 171 episodes across ten seasons from 1994 to 2005. The franchise paved the way for a number of successful spin-offs, including Kenan & Kel, The Amanda Show, The Nick Cannon Show, and the feature-length film Good Burger, all of which cemented Mitchell's impact on pop culture.
A two-part visualization to help you gain distance from any overpowering emotion so you can respond to the true need of the moment with something closer to calm.
Harvard physician Aditi Nerukar explains how to rewire your brain’s stress response to live a more resilient life.
If you’ve ever heard the phrase “pressure makes diamonds,” this video is for you.
Harvard physician Aditi Nerurkar was working 80 hours a week, and, despite what she was telling herself about resilience, the stress was taking a major toll. She explains how there are two different kinds of stress, aptly named “adaptive” and “maladaptive.” But how can you tell the difference between the two?
Dr. Nerukar explains that healthy, adaptive stress moves your life forward, while unhealthy, maladaptive stress wears you down and diminishes your productivity. When experiencing maladaptive stress, you may find yourself plummeting closer to burnout, or a complete shutdown. To combat these consequences, Dr. Neurkar offers two easily achievable methods for resetting your brain in high-stress situations.
Whether you're navigating a demanding job, balancing multiple life roles, or simply looking to improve your stress management, this information can help you thrive without compromising your well-being. Remember to slow down, take deep breaths, and regularly check in with yourself to ensure your stress remains healthy and manageable!
Neuroanatomist Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor explains the 4 key ”characters” of the brain, and how understanding each can expand your perception of yourself, and the world, forever.
At age 37, neuroanatomist Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor suffered a stroke that would take her eight years to fully recover from. This is how it changed her understanding of the brain.
In this interview, Dr. Jill draws a map of the human brain, explaining how it is comprised of four distinct modules, each serving a unique role in function and personality. This combination of cognitive and emotional components gives rise to the multidimensional characters within each of us.
Are you looking to be more rational, more creative, more forgiving, or perhaps less rigid in your thinking? Dr. Jill suggests that by becoming aware of the four modules of our brains, we can consciously choose to engage specific parts. This awareness allows us to harness the true power of our brains and shape who we want to become, ultimately fostering less anxiety, more inner peace, and a vastly more purposeful life.
Carrie Berk reveals how she transformed her struggle with anxiety and internet fame by changing her perception and finding her true voice as a writer.
Carrie Berk, author, journalist, and social media influencer with nearly 4 million TikTok followers, shares her journey through anxiety, internet fame, and personal growth.
Amid the pandemic and sudden online fame, Carrie faced intense anxiety, receiving harmful threats from strangers and grappling with the pressures of social media. Sharing her most vulnerable moments, including her first heartbreak at sixteen, Carrie emphasizes the importance of authenticity. Through therapy and self-discovery, she learned that while she couldn’t switch off her anxiety, she could change her response to it.
Carrie’s story is a perfect example of the resilience it takes to be a young person in today’s social climate, and proves how powerful self-confidence and inner strength can be.
This group of people who have experienced homelessness were asked the Perception Box question, "In moments of deep solitude, what major concerns and questions about YOU tend to dominate your thoughts?" Their honest answers were deeply moving and insightful.
This series (a collaboration with Jubilee Media) is designed for communities with shared experiences to spark deeper self-understanding and connection by sharing their answers to specially selected Perception Box questions. This highlights the power of vulnerability and the importance of creating safe spaces for honest conversations.
In this episode, a group of formerly incarcerated individuals was asked the Perception Box question, "What are you most afraid is true about you?" Their candid responses were incredibly moving and thought-provoking.
This series (a collaboration with Jubilee Media) is designed for communities with shared experiences to spark deeper self-understanding and connection by sharing their answers to specially selected Perception Box questions. This highlights the power of vulnerability and the importance of creating safe spaces for honest conversations.
Jewel says denying the truth cost her years of her life. This is how she shifted her perception to see truth more clearly and regain her strength.
“My number one job was to be a happy, whole human — not a human full of holes.” Jewel Kilcher, singer-songwriter, and visual artist, opens up about her childhood, the start of her career, and what makes Jewel, Jewel.
After being discovered during a coffee shop gig in the 1990’s, folk singer Jewel began the life-long endeavor of being a performer. Jewel went on to gain worldwide recognition for her talent and creativity. But who is she at her core? What are her greatest fears, her deepest aspirations?
In this interview, Jewel shares the personal struggles and triumphs that have shaped her, the importance of truth on her life and well-being, and the lessons she's learned along the way. Through this conversation, Jewel offers an up-close look into her journey, revealing the experiences and hard-won insights that have shaped her as both an artist and a person.
Experience Jewel’s latest exhibit at the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art, The Portal: An Art Experience by Jewel ► https://crystalbridges.org/calendar/the-portal-an-art-experience-by-jewel/
About Jewel:
Jewel Kilcher, known mononymously as Jewel, embodies the quintessential story of resilience and artistic integrity. From her humble beginnings in the rugged landscapes of Alaska to her rise as a multi-platinum recording artist, Jewel's journey is a testament to the transformative power of art. Homeless at 18, she honed her craft performing in coffee shops, blending folk, pop, and country influences with her ethereal voice and introspective songwriting.
Her debut album, "Pieces of You," captured hearts worldwide, achieving remarkable commercial success while delivering profound, soul-stirring messages. Beyond music, Jewel's talents extend to poetry and acting, with her literary works and performances reflecting her deep empathy and authenticity.
Jewel's commitment to social causes, including mental health advocacy and her foundation, the Inspiring Children Foundation, underscores her dedication to making a positive impact. In a world often dominated by transient fame, Jewel stands out as a beacon of enduring creativity and compassionate leadership.
Alyssa and her ex-boyfriend Trey have successfully transitioned from lovers to best friends. But can she recreate that same dynamic with her most recent ex, Adal? Alyssa, Trey, and Adal dive deep into their pasts and their relationships with each other by answering a series of thought-provoking Perception Box questions. Watch their honest reflections, uncover their perspectives on love and friendship, and discover what the future holds for this unique trio.
What happens when men shed their armor and embrace their emotions? Men from diverse backgrounds share their stories of overcoming trauma, redefining masculinity, and finding strength in vulnerability. This is a must-watch for anyone seeking deeper connections and understanding.
Emma and Nick both swiped "yes" in person. Now that they have a chance to get to know each other and themselves more deeply by answering Perception Box questions, are they compatible?
Arielle & Ella met on a Nectar dating show. Was it meant to be, or are they destined to be just friends? They will find out when they get to know their true selves and each other by answering Perception Box questions.
Participants are invited to sit down to ask each other Perception Box questions to see if two strangers could sit down and get vulnerable with one another.
This powerful episode features a group of individuals with disabilities opening up about their deepest fears and struggles. Their experiences highlight the unique challenges they face, from concerns about independent living to mental health struggles and navigating social stigma, and ultimately how they can relate to one another.
Michael Oher gained widespread recognition through Michael Lewis's book "The Blind Side" and its film adaptation, which depicted his difficulties in early life and time playing college football. After attending the University of Mississippi, he played in the NFL for the Baltimore Ravens, Tennessee Titans, and Carolina Panthers, winning the SuperBowl with the Ravens in 2013.
Shaka Senghor spent 19 years in prison, 7 of them in solitary confinement. This is how he found true freedom.
Watch the full video here.
Watch what happens when this group of strangers bravely share their unspoken truths. Will these women find connection in the unexpected? Could sharing your secret be the key to unlocking a powerful sense of belonging?
Curious about tools for fostering deeper self-awareness? Check out the latest episode of Tea for Two by Nectar. Former high school sweethearts, Diane & Justin, use Perception Box questions to explore their individual needs and communication styles. Great insights for anyone in a relationship, whether personal or professional.
Hailey and Travis first met on the Nectar channel, now they are going on their first date and things get deep.
Do you ever feel like you have something to prove?
Scientific experts explain how each person's perception is skewed by various factors such as beliefs, biases, and narratives.
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A collection of interviews dedicated to sharing unique perspectives and challenging our preconceived notions.
Jim Lee, President, Publisher, and Chief Creative Officer of DC Comics tells us how his childhood obsession with Superman changed his life.
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Explore how overcoming the limiting beliefs that hold us back, can expand the possibilities of our perception, and open us up to new ways of seeing and being seen.
The Osbournes was MTV’s biggest show – and it almost cost Jack Osbourne his life. Here’s how his family’s reality TV fame stole his childhood, and how he’s been able to heal since.
Meet Jordan and Rana. These two undergrads have been in an exclusive situationship, but are ready to confront where their relationship is going and what might come next.
Tea for Two explores how daters show up in a relationship by first taking a look at their relationship with themselves. Through a series of Perception Box questions, Tea for Two questions, and challenges, these daters get to know each other and themselves on a whole new level. This allows them to dig deeper, uncover more meaningful connections, and figure out if they are ready to be in this relationship.
This is how rejection made executive producer and director Julie Plec an undeniable leader.
Creator of the popular series “The Vampire Diaries,” Julie Plec is proof imposter syndrome never goes away, no matter how big you make it. The writer and producer answered our questions about self-doubt, getting “blacklisted,” and how we can alter our perceptions to better appreciate our successes.
About Julie Plec:
Julie Plec is a creator, showrunner, executive producer and director, most notably responsible for the complete Vampire Diaries Universe (The Vampire Diaries, The Originals, and Legacies), which spanned thirteen years and more than 300 episodes of television.
Plec is co-creator and co-showrunner of the upcoming series Vampire Academy, based on the popular book series, which recently wrapped production in Spain and is debuting September 15, 2022, on Peacock. She is also co-creator of the new series Dead Day, along with her Vampire Diaries partner Kevin Williamson, which was recently picked up to series at Peacock as well, and executive producer of Girls on the Bus, which was picked up straight to series at HBO Max.
Plec is creator and executive producer of Legacies, which recently aired its fourth and final season on the CW, along with serving as an executive producer of Roswell, New Mexico, which recently aired its fourth and final season on the CW as well. In addition, Plec served as executive producer of The Endgame, starring Morena Baccarin and Ryan Michelle Bathé, which recently aired on NBC.
She is currently under an overall deal at Universal Television, where she and Emily Cummins, president of her production company, My So-Called Company, are developing projects across all platforms for the studio. Plec and Cummins recently announced a new project at Peacock, Clifton, along with a slate of several other projects in development.
Along with directing multiple episodes of The Vampire Diaries, Legacies, and Roswell, New Mexico, for which she also directed the pilot, Plec directed an episode of the CW’s hit series Riverdale, and most recently directed an episode of her new series Vampire Academy.
Plec developed and executive produced Containment, which aired as a limited series on the CW in 2016.
She got her start as a television writer and co-executive producer for the series Kyle XY, which she produced for the show’s three-year run. Other television credits include Dawson’s Creek, on which she collaborated with creator/executive producer Kevin Williamson, and The Tomorrow People, on which she collaborated with fellow executive producers Greg Berlanti and Phil Klemmer.
In the early part of her career, Plec worked with both Wes Craven and Kevin Williamson during the run of their hit Scream franchise. She also co-produced Berlanti’s directorial debut film, The Broken Hearts Club.
Your emotions do not reflect an irrefutable truth. Psychologist Kristen Lindquist explains how important that is for connecting across cultures.
When it comes to obtaining an objective understanding of the world around us, emotions may not be as reliable as we think, explains Kristen Lindquist, a professor of psychology and neuroscience at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Lindquist explores the concept of "affective realism," a term that describes how our feelings shape our reality, both of which are influenced by cultural nuances. She unravels the connections between emotions, culture, and the brain, challenging the notion that our emotional experiences always mirror objective truths.
About Kristen Lindquist:
Kristen Lindquist, PhD. is a Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Her research seeks to understand the psychological and neural basis of emotions, moods, and feelings. Her on-going work uses tools from social cognition, physiology, neuroscience, and big data methods to examine how emotions emerge from the confluence of the body, brain, and culture.
Robert Waldinger is a psychiatrist, psychoanalyst and Zen priest. He is Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital, where he directs the Harvard Study of Adult Development. His TEDx talk on this subject has received nearly 44 million views, and is the 9th most watched TED talk of all time. He is the co-author of The Good Life with Dr. Marc Schulz.
Scott Barry Kaufman talks to Robert Waldinger about the secret to a happy life. Robert shares the recent findings of The Grant Study, which is the longest scientific study of happiness ever conducted. It’s been ongoing for more than 80 years now, and has had high profile participants like US President John F. Kennedy. Robert and Scott get into the details of how they continue to conduct research and how to make sense of both the new and old data. Sure enough, what the study has found consistent is the power of connection. They also touch on the topics of psychodynamic therapy, defense mechanisms, attachment, and psychological research.
Website: www.robertwaldinger.com
X: @robertwaldinger
The divisive gold/blue dress that almost broke the internet in 2015 is a relatable example of how a Perception Box works. How each of us having our Perception Box, own subjective reality, affects the way we experience the world.
Expert James Fadiman explains how psychedelics have the power to expand consciousness, enhance creativity, and deepen our connections to the world.
James Fadiman, a distinguished figure with over six decades in psychedelic research, examines the profound impact psychedelics have on consciousness, creativity, and connectivity.
Fadiman shares insights into how these substances shift perception, offering perspectives that challenge and expand our understanding of reality. He also delves into the scientific underpinnings of psychedelics, their therapeutic potential, and the societal benefits of fostering deeper empathy and open-mindedness. Highlighting the importance of integration post-experience, Fadiman sheds light on the transformative power of psychedelics to not only alter individual consciousness but also to enhance community bonds and personal relationships.
Through a focus on responsible use and the expansion of human awareness, Fadiman's expertise offers a compelling view into the capacity of psychedelics to redefine our interaction with the world and ourselves.
About James Fadiman:
Dr. James Fadiman is a leading scientific expert on the use of psychedelics for personal exploration, healing, and transformation. He has been researching, writing and lecturing on the topic for more than fifty years. His research focuses on exploring the potential of psychedelics to help individuals achieve a more meaningful, balanced and enlightened life. He has written numerous books on the topic, such as The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide and Your Symphony Of Selves, and is widely considered to be one of the most influential figures in the field.
There are three kinds of memory that all work together to shape your reality. Neuroscientist André Fenton explains.
Neuroscientist André Fenton discusses the intricate relationship between memory, perception, and reality, shedding light on the complexity of human cognition.
Fenton believes memories are not fixed but are continually modified by our experiences and mindsets.
This, in his mind, underscores the importance of humility and empathy in acknowledging the fallibility of our memories and the need to consider different perspectives in our quest for truth.
About André Fenton:
André Fenton, professor of neural science at New York University, investigates the molecular, neural, behavioral, and computational aspects of memory. He studies how brains store experiences as memories, how they learn to learn, and how knowing activates relevant information without activating what is irrelevant. His investigations and understanding integrates across levels of biological organization, his research uses genetic, molecular, electrophysiological, imaging, behavioral, engineering, and theoretical methods. This computational psychiatry research is helping to elucidate and understand mental dysfunction in diverse conditions like schizophrenia, autism, and depression. André founded Bio-Signal Group Corp., which commercialized an FDA-approved portable, wireless, and easy-to-use platform for recording EEGs in novel medical applications. André implemented a CPAP-Oxygen helmet treatment for COVID-19 in Nigeria and other LMICs and founded Med2.0 to use information technology for the patient-centric coordination of behavioral health services that is desperately needed to equitably deliver care for mental health. André hosts “The Data Set” a new web series on how data and analytics are being used to solve some of humanity’s biggest problems.
Nothing is real and everything is an illusion. Neuroscientist Heather Berlin explains why that’s not exactly a bad thing.
Neuroscientist Heather Berlin likens each person's perception to a unique box shaped by their own experiences. Perception, Berlin explains, arises from a blend of internal expectations and external sensory input, creating a subjective experience.
Berlin believes our mental state can also profoundly affect our perception; a pessimistic mindset might skew it negatively, for example. The brain filters information, relying on preexisting schemas that can lead to cognitive biases. She notes that these biases can be altered through changing inputs over time, which can expand our empathy.
Understanding perception's illusory nature empowers us to shape our experiences and find joy despite life's challenges.
About Heather Berlin:
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and associate clinical professor of psychiatry and neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York. She explores the neural basis of impulsive and compulsive psychiatric and neurological disorders with the aim of developing novel treatments. She is also interested in the brain basis of consciousness, dynamic unconscious processes, and creativity. Clinically, she specializes in lifespan (child, adolescent, and adult) treatment of anxiety, mood, and impulsive and compulsive disorders (e.g., OCD), blending her neural perspective with cognitive-behavioral therapy, mindfulness, and humanistic approaches.
You know Steve-O. Now meet Steve Glover, as the professional stuntman talks to us about pain, insecurity, and never finding contentment.
In this deeply personal and revealing interview, Steve Glover, better known as Steve-O, the daredevil entertainer known for his jaw-dropping stunts and unflinching willingness to face pain, shares the untold story of his journey from a childhood craving for attention to becoming an icon of wild antics and extreme performances.
Opening up about his struggles with alcoholism, the relentless pursuit of fame, and his battles with feeling 'not good enough', Glover offers an introspective look into the complexities behind the laughter and the screams.
With raw honesty, he discusses the pivotal moments that shaped him, the drive to document his existence through stunts, and the liberating power of sharing the secrets he once vowed to take to his grave.
This interview is not just a glimpse into the life of a professional idiot; it's a candid exploration of human vulnerability, the cost of fame, and the ongoing quest for self-acceptance.
About Steve-O:
Steve-O (a.k.a. Stephen Glover) was willing to do whatever it took to become famous, even if it meant stapling his ball sack to his leg. After failing miserably at the University of Miami and couch-surfing with friends, he decided that in order to further his goal of becoming a stuntman he would enroll in Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Clown College. But it was his relentless attention whoring that ultimately led to working with Johnny Knoxville on a new stunt-based reality show called Jackass.
In 2000, MTV aired the first season and the rest, as they say, is history. Since then, he's had continued success, as a New York Times best-selling author with the release of his memoir, 'Professional Idiot', as well as establishing himself in the world of stand-up comedy. With fourteen years of sobriety under his belt, Steve-O shows no signs of slowing down.
Former SNL star @JayPharoah answers our most challenging questions about life, self-esteem, and changing his mind.
Jay Pharoah is known best for his impressions, but he’s got a lot more going on. The actor, comedian, and rapper sat down with us to talk about embracing triumphs, overcoming setbacks, forgiveness, and the way all of it shapes who you are.
About Jay Pharoah:
Jay Pharoah is an actor and stand-up comedian. With six seasons as a cast member of NBC's Saturday Night Live, Pharoah is best known for his wide array of uncanny celebrity impressions, including President Barack Obama, Will Smith, Denzel Washington, Stephen A. Smith, Kanye West and Chris Tucker, as well as his recurring character, school principal Daniel Frye.
Over 250 million records sold and more than 70 platinum hits later, @JasonDerulo sits down with us to talk about goals, insecurities, and why he still doesn’t feel like he’s “made it.”
Jason Derulo's career flashed before his eyes when he broke his neck in 2012. Despite fearing the worst, he used positive self-talk and daily routines to recover and create hit songs like “Marry Me” and “Talk Dirty.” Overcoming childhood insecurities, he emphasizes the power of self-improvement. Now a global superstar with 250 million singles sold, Derulo prioritizes family time since becoming a father in 2021.
Cindy Gallop answers our questions about sex, identity, and why we need to stop giving a damn.
Cindy Gallop, the founder and CEO of MakeLoveNotPorn, answered our questions about self-worth, the weight of other people’s expectations on women, and hope.
She shares her mission to normalize and destigmatize conversations about sex, including the negative consequences of using pornography as a substitute for sexual education.
Cindy hopes for a world where we’re all unburdened by societal judgments and true equality is achieved.
About Cindy Gallop:
Cindy Gallop is a graduate of Somerville College, Oxford, whose background is over 30 years in brand-building, marketing and advertising — she started up the US office of ad agency Bartle Bogle Hegarty in New York in 1998 and in 2003 was named Advertising Woman of the Year.
She is the founder and CEO of IfWeRanTheWorld, co-action software launched in beta at TED 2010 and subsequently written up and taught as a Harvard Business School case study, which enables brands to implement the business model of the future — Shared Values + Shared Action = Shared Profit (financial and social).
She is also the founder of MakeLoveNotPorn – ‘Pro-sex. Pro-porn. Pro-knowing the difference’ — a social sextech platform designed to promote good sexual behavior and good sexual values, which she launched at TED 2009, and for which she has just raised $2 million to build out MLNP.tv as ‘the Social Sex Revolution’.Cindy recently partnered with AARP on their Disrupt Aging initiative to challenge and change ageism.
Cindy has also published ‘Make Love Not Porn: Technology’s Hardcore Impact on Human Behavior’ as one of TED’s line of TEDBooks.
You can follow her on Twitter @cindygallop.
He co-created one of TV’s funniest shows. He still felt like a failure in his 30s. This is comedian Neal Brennan’s story about conquering toxic self-talk.
We all tell lies to ourselves about ourselves, usually in the form of vicious inner criticism. Neal Brennan, seasoned comedian and one of the brilliant minds behind “Chapelle’s Show,” confronted his inner critic on video for our entertainment.
Despite being instrumental in one of the most successful comedy shows of all time, there was a time when Brennan didn’t think he had much to show for himself, especially not as a solo entertainer. The eventual demise of “Chappelle’s Show” led him down a dark path of self-doubt and, then, rediscovery.
Brennan worked 12-step programs, ventured into the world of psychedelics, and even tried magnetic brain manipulation to break out of his despair. Now, he has a new perspective on the value of going it alone. Turns out, it isn’t quite so bad.
About Neal Brennan:
Three-time Emmy nominated writer, director, producer, and standup comedian Neal Brennan has become a force in the comedy world. An across-the-board talent, Neal has found success in almost every creative vein in the comedy landscape. Hailed by The Hollywood Reporter as “Hollywood’s Comic Whisperer” and lauded by The New York Times as having a “hip-hop and Frontline aesthetic,” he has collaborated with top talent both in front of and behind the camera for three decades.
Neal’s most recent one-man show Neal Brennan: Unacceptable enjoyed a sold-out run in NYC in 2021 with The New York Times offering “Brennan starts off with a regular joke format before turning toward introspection as he exposes his doubts, neuroses and vulnerabilities. And he remains very funny as he does so.” Neal’s critically acclaimed first off-Broadway one-man show 3 Mics also enjoyed a sold-out NYC run in 2016 with musician John Legend serving as Executive Producer with Paste Magazine gushing “It will floor you in the best way possible.” In a break from traditional standup comedy, 3 Mics saw Brennan alternating between three separate microphones; one for traditional stand-up, one for one-liners, and one for short confessional monologues covering everything from managing his depression to his difficult relationship with his father. Both one-man shows were taped as stand-up specials and premiered on Netflix to much fanfare and critical acclaim.
Neal co-created Comedy Central’s legendary Chappelle’s Show, for which he received three Emmy nominations. Together, Brennan and Dave Chappelle wrote and produced virtually every sketch on the show themselves. A longtime writing partner of Chappelle, Neal was a standout speaker in his televised Mark Twain Prize ceremony, wrote on his Emmy-winning 2016 Saturday Night Live hosting turn, and co-wrote the cult hit feature Half Baked. Neal also served as a Creative Consultant and on-air correspondent on Comedy Central’s The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, for which he was personally picked by Noah to be his final guest. He was Executive Producer on Chris Rock’s special Chris Rock: Tamborine, Consulting Producer on Ellen Degeneres’ special Relatable, and collaborator with Seth Meyers on his White House Correspondents Dinner speech. In addition to standup, writing, directing, and producing, Brennan has also directed popular commercials for Sprite, Netflix, Best Buy and Nike.
The Osbournes was MTV’s biggest show – and it almost cost Jack Osbourne his life. Here’s how his family’s reality TV fame stole his childhood, and how he’s been able to heal since.
About Jack Osbourne:
Jack Osbourne is well known for participating in reality TV shows with his celebrity family, like The Osbournes and Ozzy and Jack’s World Tour. Jack has also overcome and dealt with great difficulties in his life, such as dyslexia, drug addiction, an MS diagnosis, depression, various medical scares in his family, and more. His ability to bounce back from these challenges has served as inspiration for others undergoing difficulties in life. Jack uses his platform to advocate for people living with MS.
Jim Lee, President, Publisher, and Chief Creative Officer of tells us how his childhood obsession with Superman changed his life.
Jim Lee is synonymous with DC Comics now, but when he was first charting his path, his family pushed him towards medical school. In this interview, Jim shares how he reasoned with his parents and bought time to pursue his dream of being a comic book artist over the span of a gap year.
About Jim Lee:
Jim Lee, a world-renowned comic book artist, writer, editor and publisher, is currently Chief Creative Officer of DC (DC) and Publisher for the company.
Known for his incredibly detailed and dynamic artistic style, Lee is one of the most revered and respected artists in American comics. A veritable legend in the industry, he has received numerous accolades and recognition for his work, including the Harvey Special Award for New Talent in 1990, the Inkpot Award in 1992, and the Wizard Fan Award in 1996, 2002 and 2003.
Shaka Senghor spent 19 years in prison, 7 of them in solitary confinement. This is how he found true freedom.
The way Shaka Senghor tells his story, he found himself incarcerated long before he officially went to prison for second-degree murder, and he experienced freedom long before completing his sentence at the age of 38.
Senghor ran away from home and got drawn into the crack cocaine trade at the age of 14. After a series of traumatic events, he felt trapped in a narrative that dictated his life could only lead to limited outcomes: an early grave or a prison cell.
In our intimate interview, Senghor shares the three "keys" that transformed his perspective on life and have enabled him to live as a genuinely free man today.
“The Blind Side” only told part of Michael Oher’s story. Now, he tells us the rest.
You might know Michael Oher as the subject of “The Blind Side,” the 2009 movie starring Sandra Bullock and Tim McGraw. The film was based on the true story of Oher, a young Black football player, who gained a second chance at life after being adopted by white parents.
But Oher’s version of the story is a lot different, and it starts long before the Tuohys entered the picture.
In this interview conducted with our partner Unlikely Collaborators, Oher paints a picture of the crack epidemic in the ‘80s and ‘90s, a broken and tumultuous family, and a young boy determined to climb out of it.
About Michael Oher:
Michael Oher gained widespread recognition through Michael Lewis's book "The Blind Side" and its film adaptation, which depicted his difficulties in early life and time playing college football. After attending the University of Mississippi, he played in the NFL for the Baltimore Ravens, Tennessee Titans, and Carolina Panthers, winning the SuperBowl with the Ravens in 2013.
Michael has also written two books: I Beat The Odds and When You’re Back’s Against The Wall, which detail his struggles and successes in life, imparting wisdom on how to overcome adversity. Michael has also contributed to the book Blindsided, where he outlines his experience of early-stage CTE, how he walked away from the NFL, and his urgent recommendations to reform football and make it a safer sport.
Built from the material of your beliefs (aka, the bullshit you tell yourself and collect from those around you over the course of your life), the Perception Box™ has the power to distort your reality and leave you feeling isolated, disconnected, and fearful. By asking sometimes contradictory but always consequential questions, we’ll show you how to understand and work with your Perception Box—how to overcome the limiting beliefs that hold you back, expand the possibilities of perception, and invite in new ways of seeing and being seen.
A guided body awareness mediation to help you get out of your head and into your body. Learn to tune into your body for a heads up on what you’re feeling before you explode. It’s literally your friend on the inside.
Simple, easy, and faster than chasing down that driver that cut you off.
Orin Davis earned the first doctorate in positive psychology, and is a self-actualization engineer who enables people to do and be their best. As the Principal Investigator of the Quality of Life Laboratory, he conducts research on flow, creativity, hypnosis, and mentoring. Dr. Davis consults for companies from startups to multinationals on hiring strategies, culture, innovation, and employee well-being. He is the author of Team Flow: The psychology of optimal collaboration.
Scott Barry Kaufman talks to Orin Davis about the new science of flow. A lot of people are familiar with the concept of flow, but according to Dr. Davis, the experience of it is not very common. They discuss Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s work and how Dr. Davis is expanding the research of flow by studying it at a group level. Dr. Davis talks about how we can increase the chances of experiencing flow for both individuals and teams. Orin and Scott also touch on the topics of microflow, hypnosis, absorption, positive psychology, and self-actualization.
Website: https://qllab.org/
X: @DrOrinDavis
Robert Sapolsky is professor of biology and neurology at Stanford University and a research associate with the Institute of Primate Research at the National Museum of Kenya. His research has been featured in the National Geographic documentary "Stress: Portrait of a Killer". At age 30, Robert received the MacArthur Foundation's "genius" grant. He is author of Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers, A Primate's Memoir, The Trouble with Testosterone and Monkeyluv. His latest book is called Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will.
Scott Barry Kaufman talks to Robert Sapolsky about life without free will. Humans like the idea of having control over their lives, but Robert asserts that free will is just an illusion. Life beyond free will may sound unpleasant, but Robert explains the profound consequences of this belief in reforming the justice system, meritocracy, and education. Robert and Scott also touch on the topics of philosophy, quantum physics, mindfulness, grit, and responsibility.
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/robertsapolsky/
For over 40 years, Bob Mankoff has been the driving force of comedy and satire at some of the most honored publications in America, including The New Yorker and Esquire. He is the founder of Cartoon Collections, parent company to CartoonStock.com, the world’s most successful cartoon licensing platform. For twenty years as Cartoon Editor for The New Yorker, Bob pored over thousands of submissions each week, analyzing, critiquing, and selecting each cartoon. In 2005, he helped start the “New Yorker Cartoon Caption Contest.” Bob is the author of numerous books, including his New York Times bestselling memoir, How About Never – Is Never Good For You?: My Life In Cartoons.
Scott Barry Kaufman talks to Bob Mankoff about the psychology of humor. Looking back at his illustrious career as a cartoonist, Bob talks about his early beginnings and the people he's mentored in the field. He explains the anatomy of a joke and reveals his all-time favorite cartoons. While humans are creative creatures, Bob believes that using AI and technology can further augment our intelligence and humor by opening up worlds of possibilities.
Website: www.bobmankoff.com
X: @BobMankoff
Joseph Goldstein is a co-founder and the guiding teacher of the Insight Meditation Society (IMS) along with Jack Kornfield and Sharon Salzberg. He is one of the first American vipassana teachers and has been teaching Buddhist meditation worldwide since 1974. A contemporary author of numerous popular books on Buddhism, his publications include Mindfulness: A Practical Guide to Awakening, One Dharma, Insight Meditation and others.
Scott Barry Kaufman talks to Joseph Goldstein about Buddhism and the impermanence of life. Being too attached to the self can bring suffering. However, this doesn’t mean that we need to forego our identities or self-care. Joseph explains that enlightenment can be achieved when the mind is free from clinging. He talks about the different states that can help us realize the insight of impermanence and selflessness. Scott and Joseph also touch on the topics of mindfulness, compassion, creativity, and wisdom.
Website: www.dharma.org
X: @onedharma
Dan Siegel is a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School of Medicine and the founding co-director of the Mindful Awareness Research Center at UCLA. Dr. Siegel is also the Executive Director of the Mindsight Institute. He’s authored numerous articles, chapters, and books including the New York Times bestsellers Mind: A Journey to the Heart of Being Human and Aware: The Science and Practice of Presence. His latest book is called IntraConnected: MWe (Me + We) as the Integration of Self, Identity, and Belonging.
Scott Barry Kaufman talks to Dr. Dan Siegel about expanding the notion of the self. Modern culture has taught us that the self is all about individual identity and personal experiences. But Dr. Siegel posits that who we are is not limited to the brain or body. He argues that the self is not isolated, it’s composed of our relationships to other living beings and to the natural world. This expanded view of the self has important implications for the trajectory of humanity. Dan and Scott also touch on the topics of consciousness, neuroscience, quantum physics, and the flow state.
Website: drdansiegel.com
Instagram: @DrDanSiegel
Michael Slepian is the Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. Associate Professor of Leadership and Ethics at Columbia University. A recipient of the Rising Star Award from the Association for Psychological Science, he is the leading expert on the psychology of secrets. He’s authored more than fifty articles on secrecy, truth, and deception. Michael’s research has been covered by The New York Times, The Atlantic, NPR, BBC, The Wall Street Journal and more. He is the author of The Secret Life of Secrets.
Scott Barry Kaufman talks to Michael Slepian about the psychology of secrets. Everyone has secrets that they keep from others—how does this affect our relationships and well-being? According to Michael, maintaining privacy is not the most burdensome aspect. Carrying a secret all by ourselves is what weighs us down. Michael and Scott explore the different categories of secrets and we talk about when to reveal the deepest parts of ourselves and who to reveal them to. Scott and Michael also touch on the topics of personality, morality, trauma, developmental psychology and communication.
Website: michaelslepian.com
X: @michaelslepian
Monica Parker is the founder of global human analytics and change consultancy HATCH, whose clients include blue-chip companies such as LinkedIn, Google, Prudential, and LEGO. Her career has been nothing short of colorful, having been an opera singer, a museum exhibition designer, a policy director, a Chamber of Commerce CEO, and a homicide investigator. She is also a world-renowned speaker, writer, and the author of The Power of Wonder.
Scott Barry Kaufman talks to Monica Parker about the power of wonder. In today’s fast-paced world, most people fail to notice the richness of life. To become more wonder-prone, Monica encourages us all to slow down and pursue meaningful exploration. When we pay more careful attention to the world, we become more empathetic, resilient, and exuberant. Monica shares with her cycle of wonder framework and how we can be more open and present in our daily lives. Monica and Scott also touch on the topics of personality, post-traumatic growth, mindfulness, and education.
Website: www.monica-parker.com
Instagram: @monicacparker
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